Now that the main event is concluded, it's time for the spinning to begin. The Estonian Foreign Ministry fired off a note this morning that shows how the Estonian government is claiming victory and actively working to discredit the looters, who took all their anger at the Estonian government out by helping themselves to free booze.
Yesterday’s rioters found the police presence and the assembly of people to be a good reason to act destructively.
The rioters showed clearly that their real goal was to riot, destroy, break and loot.
These actions confirm that they have nothing to do with respecting and protecting the memories of those who fell during World War II.
Meanwhile, the Russians are considering -- and probably will -- sever diplomatic relations with Estonia.
Just a friendly reminder here, the Estonian government moved a monument from a central square to a cemetery. And the Russians consider that grounds for severing diplomatic ties. Will they take off their shoes and bang them on their desks when the vote is taken? And who will win this new propaganda war?
So many questions now exist that have yet to answer themselves.
278 kommentaari:
1–200/278 Uuemad › Uusimad»I'm glad if the Russian embassy will get the hell out of here. they're discredited themselves enough. organizing a little 1924 again, huh? put them on the train and adieu.
I don't think Russia will sever diplomatic relations. Why? Because people in the Kremlin are not stupid. ;-)
In Russia, Duma members can shout whatever they want. It doesn't mean anything.
And, of course, diplomatic and economic relations between Estonia and Russia are far more in the interest of Russia than Estonia, in my opinion.
In Latvia I heard many voices during recent days who said there will be simpilification of history by the Russian side always, and that they try to intervene as soon as possible. Like, ah, Estonia, what do you expect else? It was like that, and it will be in the future. And then they switch to the latest hockey news on tv after translating the Tallinn coverage for me.
No, you must be kidding, Kristjan, Russia is in a long term more important to us, than we to Russia.
If by "long term" you mean the next few centuries, then I could maybe agree with you. If you mean the next few decades, then certainly not.
If they send Uspenski home, who is there in Estonia to pour gas on the fire? ;-)
Now, in whose interest is it that diplomatic relations are severed? ;-)
Not to mention the reality that they would look like utter arses in the eyes of Europeans and Americans.
Well I awoke this morning to discover that someone had ripped my windshield wiper off and bent my car antenna.
It was probably just some local drunks, not your drunks in Tallinn.
Recalling an ambassador is a step or couple short from severing diplomatic relations.
Even Lithuania "pulled its ambassador" from Latvia for a couple days in the 1990s after Latvia thought it had struck oil in Lithuanian waters or some such spat.
BTW, does anyone know if the masonry behind the statue was also removed, and how the removal was done?
BTW, does anyone know if the masonry behind the statue was also removed, and how the removal was done?
They showed footage of it on ETV. It's all gone. Allegedly it's in storage to protect it so that it won't be demolished.
Kristopher,
The stone wall was removed brick by brick, I assume if the momument will ever be rebuilt, they will use these again (recycling!)...
I just wanted to note that this has all happened in Tallinn.
There haven't been corresponding riots in any other city in Estonia -- not even Narva.
Other cities have Russian-speaking populations too. Both in Pärnu and Tartu the number hovers around ~15 percent. But so far, other than my torn car windshield wiper, no damage down here.
So is this really about Estonia, or is it about Tallinn? That's my question.
Not much to say.
I always knew those people existed in Estonia (I see them every day), but I simply can't understand (now or never) how can they be SOOO stupid. You break the windows, help your girlfriend step into the store, come out with enormous pile of Hugo Boss items and leave.... And there’s about 10 cameras pointed at you the whole time...
What the hell!?
-how do you distinguish a criminal from a rich guy?
-well, they both wear Hugo Boss, but a criminal is holding a R-Kiosk plastic bag
What Estonian government needs to do now is to send a note back to Russia telling them semi-nicely to shut the hell up. It is far from being their business, and they do not have the right to talk about severing relations or even mention the war.
It is ESTONIA, and ESTONIAN people decide what/when/where/why, not Russia.
What Estonian government needs to do now is to send a note back to Russia telling them semi-nicely to shut the hell up.
I think things should just proceed as normal. The monument is moved. So that's it.
It reminds one of a painful splinter. A little blood and puss flows after you remove it. But then it starts to heal --- I hope.
For some reason, I feel my new image will be "the image" from this event.
Kes? Mis? Kus? -- here it comes.
guistino is right...leave it behind now...move on...I mean, the summer season begins end of may...people will leave towards their cottages, summer houses and surrender Tallinn to the finn's once more ;-)
Well chaps, the country is in the international news again. So far I have found it on the BBC, the Guardian, the NY Times, and Spain's El Pais (where it's the only story on the international site front page that merits a photo!). For a little country, Estonia's been getting well known lately!
i can't seem to see any media reference anywhere (the english speaking media have never heard of estonia, it seems) - 1 killed? is this person a russian or estonian? (or is it nicer to say estonian russian.... what where the circumstances?
"the english speaking media have never heard of estonia, it seems"
Are you kidding? It's on the international section of all the international news sources. And the media HAS heard of Estonia, but unfortunately the majority of stories are about issues like this rather than about skype or the booming economy!
I think they are seeing France redux here. And Ansip is even referencing Sarkozy:
Sarko reference
I hope the Estonian authorities re-establishes the Bronze Soldier at a war cemetery quickly. Once completed it will demonstrate the idiocy of Russian rhetoric over the issue.
BTW, apparently the Russian newspaper Noviye Izvestiya reported the city administration of the Moscow suburb of Khimki had lost the bodies of six Soviet pilots buried underneath a recently bulldozed memorial.
Yes, they shouldn't wait too long. Soon there will be accusations that Alyosha has gone to the foundry whence he came.
Of course, the government may also want to hold on to that card, as an announcement that he has been relocated is the only conceivable thing that could break up another gathering.
visitor: i guess no mention just in this silly country's media... no surprise there. no negativity implied..
the original plan was to do it quickly, i thought. they'd get the most rusky embarrassment for their buck if they did it quickly. perhaps they can build a statue of russian teenagers holding bottle of vodka next to him...
perhaps they can build a statue of russian teenagers holding bottle of vodka next to him...
I'm sure they can, but why would they? :-)
to honor those that would honor the supreme uber soldier? russians love all that sort of thing...
I wish I could agree with Guistino that this 'painful splinter' will start to heal. I wouldn't be that optimistic though.. The gap between Estonians and Russian Estonians has never been bigger, and it's been growing dramatically in the past days. Nah, that's going to take a while for the splinter to heal..
I must say, right now I'm deeply ashamed of both all involved parties - for the Estonian government that hypocritially claimed that the works around the monument are dictated by their wish to provide a dignified final resting place for those buried on Tõnismägi; of the Estonians that fell victims of the spiteful extremist minority; and most of all, of those Russian Estonians that think that drunken looting is the best way of showing civil protest.
And I'm already well beyond the point of feeling ashamed of Russia - the country that most of my family comes from. Voilà...
to honor those that would honor the supreme uber soldier? russians love all that sort of thing...
Er... are you sure you're feeling alright? :-P
We don't need to suck up to the looters, Karlos. We need keep them as calm as possible, and give them the stick when they lose it. When they commit crimes, they pay for them according to the law. That's all there is to it. ;-)
Karlos: What country are you talking about where there's no coverage?
I am not sure everyone can just be so complacent and say, "Well, now the world will see the idiots we have to deal with." In many ways, the rioters have achieved their purpose, intentionally or not. It's put the story into international headlines. People who very rarely hear about Estonia are seeing it in their papers, accompanied with photos of police in riot gear. And the whole incident gives Russia even more publicity to shout "Aha! Told you so! They ARE fascists!"
On the Spanish "el pais" site, the story begins with (assuming my spanish isn't too crap) something including, "protesters against the Estonian government's plans to remove a statue put up in homage to RED ARMY SOLDERS WHO EXPELLED THE NAZIS FROM THEIR LAND". And that's it as far as the description. It isn't until right at the end of the story that you read one line about why Estonians consider it a symbol of occupation, but considering how quickly one flicks through morning papers, the reader goes away thinking the country's a den of nazis.
The "Times" site has the story at the top of their "World" section, and interestingly, the next link to Estonia they've put besides the story? "Gay ambassador stirs old hatreds" (from 2006).
You make up your own minds, but in the media at least, there doesn't seem to be much empathy for Estonia.
You make up your own minds, but in the media at least, there doesn't seem to be much empathy for Estonia.
I don't think there is all that much we can do about how the world media reflects on us. All we can really do the explain our point of view to as many people as possible. We do that - although I agree that it could be done much better, and the foreign ministry has not really been up to the task recently.
However, we shouldn't spend too much of our time worrying what the farmers in France or the pensioners in America think of us. We run our country as best we can, and make decisions based on what's best for Estonia. And then hope that the world media reflects on it competently and with conscience. And hope that decision-makers in the countries that could potentially be our allies and partners understand us.
And I think it's actually not all that bad. :-)
Are you aware of this:
"A spokesman for the Russian foreign ministry, Mikhail Kamynin, called the Estonian government's action 'blasphemous' and 'inhuman.'"
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21631462-1702,00.html
"Inhuman"? It's clear that Russia was just waiting for an opportunity to attack and, if not this pretext, it would simply have chosen another.
To put it simply, Russia wants Estonia back. And Alaska. And Latvia and Georgia and Ukraine.
All that's left for us to do now is fight.
Those were Russian NASHI youth cult members who caused the riots.
http://www.kommersant.com/p762639/Estonia,_Bronze_Soldier,_Russia,_WWII/
They might as well have been Russian spies.
When "Other Russia" protests in Moscow, the Kremlin says it has a right to crush them. But when Nashi riots and loots in Tallinn, Estonians are "inhuman" to stop them.
Chechnya is "internal" to Russia so foreigners stay away. But Estonia? Russia is free to do as it likes, because that's "part of Russia" too.
This is the naked face of Russia revealed. Act to protect yourselves, being thankful for the warning, or take the consequences of inaction.
This is the naked face of Russia revealed. Act to protect yourselves, being thankful for the warning, or take the consequences of inaction.
Exactly!
http://rus.postimees.ee/foto/0/5/5655046311b67d0f25_3.jpg
wrong pic, sorry:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8337/tundmatuvabastajatj8jc6.jpg
I must say, right now I'm deeply ashamed of both all involved parties - for the Estonian government that hypocritially claimed that the works around the monument are dictated by their wish to provide a dignified final resting place for those buried on Tõnismägi; of the Estonians that fell victims of the spiteful extremist minority; and most of all, of those Russian Estonians that think that drunken looting is the best way of showing civil protest.
It's a pretty deep splinter we are talking about here.
Anyway, let me say thanks for your thoughts. I think most people in Estonia felt rather ambivalent about this. In fact, I still do.
I have limited atachment, personally, to monuments. And I think that most Estonians didn't like the Tõnismägi monument, but they put up with it, along with the annual red celebration, every year because they were scared of saying anything and disturb the street mob we saw last night.
But the bottomline is that that statue is gone, and even if it was put back, it still wouldn't change what happened last night.
So, where do we go from here? Forward, the only way there is to go.
I don't really like Ansip. He seems like he likes power too much for me. But I really, really don't like listening to Russian government officials call this country "fascist."
Take a look in the mirror. State-controlled media? Fusion of state-controlled interests and corporatism? Putin's so great because he brought stability?
The guy is like Mussolini - and Mussolini was the one who first used the symbol of the fasces.
Meanwhile, they just moved a war memorial from a square to a cemetery. In the scheme of life on our small planet -- of people dying in Estonia from AIDS, alcoholism, and car accidents -- this is small. As Lavrov would say, "minor politics."
The history of the Red Army in Estonia is as clear as it has been since the begining. Western policy has always acknowledged the Soviet's actions in Estonia as they happened. They have not been seen as liberators. The rhetoric about "fascism" and "the soldier liberator" is for Russian ears only.
Americans fought World War II to stop Japanese expansion in Asia and German expansion in Europe. The rest was just details, and still is. Soviet occupied Estonia was as legitimate as Nazi occupied Denmark. The Danes were scared beyond belief when the Red Army 'liberated' Bornholm. They were happy when those troops were withdrawn.
Among the foreign policy elite out there there's little love for the Red Army. They don't want to provoke Russia more, but I doubt they wouldn't take Mart Laar's side when it comes down to it.
And I think that most Estonians didn't like the Tõnismägi monument, but they put up with it, along with the annual red celebration, every year because they were scared of saying anything and disturb the street mob we saw last night.
No. We put up with it because we're tolerant people who can understand that it's possible to view and understand the same thing differently - especially when there's limited information.
We stopped putting up with it, when it became an instrument of the people who act against the Estonian Republic.
Giustino aked how it was in other citys. By chance I visited the Vene gymnasium in Valga. The conversation failed cause either side could understand. Russian and German. But the Russian staff started to talk in Estonian to me. Nice try. It is very calm here right now. The Valka side, across the Latvian border is just amused about what happened in Tallinn. Even among mixed couples (Russian speaking -Latvian). The Estonian border guards just joked with some Russian speaking travellers as I crossed the border by myself.
Well, it's a big enough story that the BBC has devoted a "Have Your Say" page to it:
http://tinyurl.com/3ba677
Most of the comments are from Estonians and Russians, but you get an international view as well.
Some of the comments by Russians (in Russia) really go to showing how brainwashed they have been, for example one guy states that Russians in Estonia are forbidden from speaking their language in public. Wow!
Some of the comments by Russians (in Russia) really go to showing how brainwashed they have been, for example one guy states that Russians in Estonia are forbidden from speaking their language in public. Wow!
Yes, and according to Lena in Oxford, what's happening in Tallinn "has a strong strong flavour of genocide aimed towards Russians".
Dear oh dear oh bally dear.
As an American who has spent time in Estonia and Russia I just want to say Congratulations Estonia!
Glad to see the disgusting monument and Communist symbol finally fall. Now only if we can get people, especially Americans to learn about the real truth of the "occupation"
Latvia, Lithuania and Finalnd hurried to support us. Thank God. So much for Russia forcing the EU to punish Estonia. Most Russians are way too deep in propaganda but it seems that the civilized world might believe us.
It appears that Ukraine too agrees that domestic matters are domestic matters.
Hmm. I wonder if these riots will have any positive impact on the real estate prices in kesklinn? Prices there were getting a little out of hand, shouold we say. Maybe some healthy market correction is in the works?
Just trying to see something good in everyhting bad. :-)
I try to see the arguments of both sides but since I am Geman this sucks:
Berlin - Former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on Friday condemned the pulling down of a Russian war memorial in Estonia as an insult to the memory of those who fought fascism. "The way Estonia is dealing with the memory of young Russian soldiers who lost their lives in the fight against fascism is in bad taste and irreverent," he said.
Such a way of handling the memory of the dead "contradicts every form of civilized behaviour," Schroeder told a meeting of trade union officials in Riedenberg, southern Germany.
Earth. com or so as source
Now I wonder why Gerhard "Gazprom" Schröder would say that...
I have to say, don't think the Americans will appreciate the timing. Right now they've got their hands full trying to calm the Russians down regarding the proposed missile defence systems in Central and Eastern Europe. Last thing they needed was an international incident of this scale!
Schröder is a tool.
I hear that there's something going on in Vabaduse V. right now. Anybody know what? All I hear are sirens.
I have to say, don't think the Americans will appreciate the timing.
Maybe it's unfortunate for them. But we didn't really have a choice about the timing. And we're not the ones that are making this into an international incident!
They might not be happy about it, but I think they'll understand.
Schröder is a tool.
Every German I know hates his guts.
I continue to be impressed by Ansip -- transforming the face of Tallinn in one fell swoop. Now doing his part to make Vabaduse väljak car-free. A place for people -- yes, angry people, but no more of that ugly parking lot appearance!
Uh oh. Looks like Kalev Rebane is showing his freshly shaved head. I wouldn't mind if he got a good helping of foam spray either.
You mean, 24 hours later, Kalev is finally out of his vodka stupor?
You mean, 24 hours later, Kalev is finally out of his vodka stupor?
I am not happy about this whole mess. But I am glad that Kalev and his boys and Linter and his boys just lost their pet cause.
What else is there for them to do?
I really wish the Estonian youth would go home. (Have I mentioned that young people are stupid, lately?) And I wish the police deal with ethnic Estonian skin-heads and trouble-makers very decisively.
(Have I mentioned that young people are stupid, lately?)
I agree. Let's all stick 'em on a boat and send them to Spitzbergen.
http://pronkss6dur.nero.pri.ee/
Trying to prove you're not stupid, Sten? :-P Well, the slide show doesn't prove it, but the fact that you're posting here does. So congratulations. ;-)
your comments are freaking retarded gentlemen.
are you all just kidding?
first i must mention i am russian, just in case u r wandering.
i wont quote your names i respond to, as there are too many to quote.
ok, someone said Estonia is now more important to Russia than vise versa. Are you acting kids or playing blindness here? I cannot even imagine ourselves (yes, im part of it whether you like it or not) here without russian oil and goods transited through Estonian ports. Can u?
Someone said about booming economy? huh, good point, tell me now whats our economy? you mentioned skype? wtf is that? a project sold to america? wth it has to do with our economy? Mobile phones? u joking. Wood? is there any left? Meat? Fish? yeah and chips. whats our economy guys? scrapyard built for EU poos? Would you prefer a monument in the old town or hills of shite dumped around tallinn from Eu loos? whats economy? Yeah, tourism and transit, arent they? 40% of transited goods are russian u know? Tourism. now go to tourism.tallinn.ee or whats the address and download the pdf with visitor trends and numbers. i think you can imagine what u gonna find there? so tell me boys wheres our "booming economy" gonna be once Russia builds an economic wall?
i respect your views on loots and riots but thinking that we can easily move on with out Russian trade and stuff is just retarded.
who are you trying to cheat? yourselves?
oh im tired typing. i would give you more topics to think about if i knew i wont be deleted.
dont get me wrong im not backing the rioters but think whats better for you NATIVES a monument in the city or a scrapyard by your home.
oh i forgot, our officials say that the main reason to move the monument was clashes between estonians and russians on celebration like 9.may, right? ok now remind me was our or your national front thugs coming to beat the shit out of our old men coming to leave flowers by monument?
why wouldnt our officials sort native radical parties instead of moving monument to stop violence?
thanks for deleting.
russia just wants to manipulate with us.
Hi Sergei,
A little bit of clarification. Less than 10% of Estonian trade is with Russia (6.5% of exports and 9.2% of imports), so economically Russia is not that important. Also, Estonia is energy independent, in fact we export energy to Latvia and Finland.
But Russia is important to Estonia and anyone that thinks we can ignore them or live without them are incorrect.
Sergei, I am sitting in this community you are claiming to be a part of it right now. There are also different views from yours, you anonymus. Tired? Then switch off the tv, man.
examples please mate
you're farting in the air saying that
Here are the stats that I mention above:
http://www.estemb.ru/eng/estonia_and_russia#economy
I cannot even imagine ourselves (yes, im part of it whether you like it or not) here without russian oil and goods transited through Estonian ports. Can u?
Yes.
Someone said about booming economy? huh, good point, tell me now whats our economy
Various industries, currently growing over 10% annually.
why wouldnt our officials sort native radical parties instead of moving monument to stop violence?
And how exactly can the government "sort" them?
The long term solution can only come from dialogue and the acceptance of different views. This is beyond question. But moving the monument and the bones was/are necessary for various reasons, many of them symbolic. This is the Republic of Estonia, where you are free to mourn your dead, but not agitate against Estonia, or for the Soviet Union, which was a criminal regime. The monument stood for 15 years without any problems. The problems started with the anti-Estonian agitation.
It's very convenient to agitate in the center of town. It's very convenient to mourn the dead in a cemetery. Hence the solution.
the previous comment was for sten.
now, anonuumne, i wont persist on numbers, as i dont have the relevant data to back it up at the moment. but just try to include the russian people working for estonian community and you will see the different numbers. but im glad you understood the main poit though.
Jens-Olaf, the case im writing form english ip does only mean im running a part of my biz in the uk now, and a huge part of the corporate tax goes to estonian economy by the way just to let you know.
so, like you say, me too sitting in the same community btw. i was born i Tallinn and live in Tallinn and will do for the time being
sergei, you're the best spokesman for your side so far -- there is no one better. there is no else, actually. there is a swedish tv 4 crew staying at three sisters -- go look em up and give em an earful -- seriously. they are doing the siberian deportee side on sunday, but a russian segment tomorrow.
sergei,
You have some good comments. What do you think of the violence that occurred last night?
The long term solution can only come from dialogue and the acceptance of different views. This is beyond question. But moving the monument and the bones was/are necessary for various reasons, many of them symbolic. This is the Republic of Estonia, where you are free to mourn your dead, but not agitate against Estonia, or for the Soviet Union, which was a criminal regime. The monument stood for 15 years without any problems. The problems started with the anti-Estonian agitation.
Symbolic, right. Isnt the monument symbolic for grand kids of those died there?
i wont comment on criminal regime, as i wont back the soviet union, but its a question what regime would turn out to be more criminal soviet or nazi isnt it?
ok now please guide me through anti-estonian agitation and on what occasions it took place, and please include ony cases you know about russian thugs misbehaving on Estonian national celebrations, like Independence day or something.
So Sergei? This "platnoi-ish" attitude and behaviour of the masses is for you the "Russian way?"
The monument was to be relocated - not destroyed and poor unkown bones were to be indentified and given decent burial. Are you against it - do you agree with the thiefs and and wreckers - is their method your also your method?`Is this Russian the Russian way?
Molder,
dont get me going.
your sarcasm shows what a retarded person u r, nothing else.
And Sergei what do you think about those kids in front of the Toompea castle who had slogans "USSR-4-EVER"?
Do you see it lesser insult for a nation of whose 1/3 of population was deported, repressed, etc, by Russians na USSR?
Symbolic, right. Isnt the monument symbolic for grand kids of those died there?
No reason why it couldn't continue to be, when it's in the cemetery.
i wont comment on criminal regime, as i wont back the soviet union, but its a question what regime would turn out to be more criminal soviet or nazi isnt it?
Remember that the Estonian government has also torn down a monument that wasn't dedicated to the Nazis, but featured a man in an SS uniform. But regimes were criminal. That's all there is to it.
ok now please guide me through anti-estonian agitation and on what occasions it took place, and please include ony cases you know about russian thugs misbehaving on Estonian national celebrations, like Independence day or something.
How about waving Soviet and Czarist Russian flags, and tearing down an Estonian flag on May 9 last year? Or Russian football fans agitating with slogans saying "the masters have returned"?
They didn't happen on national holidays, but that doesn't make them any less insulting.
Mina,
as i said before im not backing the looters. What russian-way are you talking about? blatnoy-ish? are russians more "blatnoy" than finns or english lager louts coming here? you seem to welcome them dont u? I've never backed riots and never will but how do you explain estonian nazis dressed as cunts in dr' martens shoes, military gear, skin headed coming to beat the shit out of old men on the 9th? are they "platnoi"? has there been any violent incident by the monument without your nationalists coming?
I meant "Both regimes were criminal".
ok now please guide me through anti-estonian agitation and on what occasions it took place, and please include ony cases you know about russian thugs misbehaving on Estonian national celebrations, like Independence day or something.
How do you look upon teenagers, young ones, that are born and bred here, that gather together and chant "fascisti"?
We all know that word -- that's Stalinist for "Estonian". And it's scary when you are talking about 16 year olds. Who brainwashes them? Why, please, why are they so dumb?
They proved they still like some things about Estonia last night -- the jewelry, the beer, the clothes.
But moving a monument from a square to a military cemetery? The Russian response is infantile and hysterical.
The NKVD put one too many bullets in Estonian heads for any warm fuzzy feelings of gratitude for WWII.
So what are we arguing about? Just because the Russian-sponsored activists say 'this our Stalingrad' doesn't make it so.
has there been any violent incident by the monument without your nationalists coming?
There has also been no violence with our nationalists coming, because the police have prevented it.
ive never heard about the flag burnt but thats happening everywhere. you find nazis in russia demostrating, soviets on cuba, protestant in england, catolics in ukraine, alzir in france. thats a radical minority and has nothing to do with the monument and memories of those died and buried undeneath it. if thats a reason behind it its a stupid reason u know. why dont english or americans knock muslim churches down after 911 and london accidents.
as for footbal slogans those are russians coming form russia, and have nothing to do with local russians, who are more loyal. have you mentioned?
Ugh, boring and tedious, Sergei et al. This discussion is worse than Usenet. Going to bed. Hope you reach a consensus by morning.
And exactly how many Estonians have you seen in Russia screaming, that "all is ours". If you want to play the game who is more Nazi then visit your homeland. I met my first Nazis there. BTW 60% of European neo-Nazis are there.
But this is not my point: Can you agree that the monument symbolizes also the death and sorrow that glorious USSR gave Estonian people?
And what are Estonians doing? Relocating the statue to cemetery and identifying the bones - something Russia was unable to do for 60 years - and to give them decent burial.
And what are doing those “defenders”? Stealing, breaking, and even killing.
Here's a photo of some modern day Hitler Youth. Nothing like a little Kremlin-sponsored youth group in the morning.
As for the boneheads in the combat boots, they are idiots too. They deserve a good hose down with some foam spray as well, or maybe a good water-cannoning, if there is such a verb.
They wanted to blow that monument up, not stick it in a cemetery. I'm glad they didn't get their wish.
Well said Kristopher, the internet is full of this type of back and forth right now and it doesn't seem to solve anything. Estonians aren't going to convince Russians and Russians aren't going to convince Estonians.
We need to look towards the future and how we can live together from here on.
Sergei,
In a way it's clear that radical minorities on both sides have ruined it for normal people on both sides. Added to that, there is the furry hand of Mother Russia meddling in these affairs, which doesn't help at all!
And so here we are.
I'm confident, though, that after the radicals and the crazy kids have had their fun, normal Russians and Estonians can start a more constructive dialogue than previously. We are really not that different. We just see the war differently, which is understandable. We can live together. We just have to talk more, and keep the crazies where they belong - in the periphery of society.
Send the radical groups to afghanistan. That should fix 'em.
for what it's worth, here's an alternative viewpoint from a non-Estonian who loves the country and the people but has worried about the Estonian Russian situation since first visiting Tallinn - http://rulabula.blogspot.com - I hope it all works out peacefully and quickly
And final say to Sergei
It is very hard to understand for estonian, why bones can not be reburied. Of course, we also have kind of cold meat rites, but these will not last half a century. Maybe you liberated a wrong civilization, a wrong planet. You landed at barbarians, so be it - learn to its grave-digging habbits. Australian aborigenes have one way with bones, moluccans had the others. The reasons for digging the bones are fairly intelligible foe most of estonians. Bones are just bones, Sergei, even the penis-bone of Jesus is just a bone. Why this mess? We have not asked for it.
Agu-Enrik Ubailves,
if thats another sarcastic comment, you are free to kill your bottle and float away. if not, what i meant by scrapyars was a plan of our gvrnmnt to arrange a large scrapyard in the suburbs of tallinn for european food and industrial rubbish to lift some fast cash.
Mina,
tiblad valja on a game in russia huh? lovely isn it? of course they knew the 30000 in the stadium wont understand it.
"But this is not my point: Can you agree that the monument symbolizes also the death and sorrow that glorious USSR gave Estonian people?"
no i cant. Y the monument in central berlin next to house of parliament does not symbolize the humiliation of germans?
Giustino, u see my point, then why wont tackle radicals instead of moving dead men? u think those boneheads wont come to the cemetery on the 9th?
Kristjan, good point it is, however whats happening is provoked by the government and thats more than kids having fun. there are some grown ups having fun now which is disappointing
Triona Carey
what a good read and so true
Y the monument in central berlin next to house of parliament does not symbolize the humiliation of germans?
The Germans deserve to be humiliated for WW2, and they understand it themselves!
The Estonians were the victims of a clash between two criminal regimes. There's the difference.
u think those boneheads wont come to the cemetery on the 9th?
I think most boneheads won't, because in the cemetery they won't have an audience, like they do in the center of town. And the few that do will find themselves in the back of a police car very quickly.
there are some grown ups having fun now which is disappointing
Agreed. But as long as nothing very tragic (i.e. deaths resulting from ethnic clashes or deaths from clashes with the police) happens, I think it'll be over before too long.
I look at all this as a piece of art. It would be a nice touch for the authorities to play most beautiful piece of classical music, something by Ludwig Van Beethoven, over these crazed crowds. Play it real loud. So that you can barely hear any shrieks or cries fo help or anything. That would be such an lovely syrreal soundtrack to this meaningless violence. And then for the climax .... bring in the attack dogs, truncheons and pepper gas.
And let loose ultraviolence. My brothers! That would be most beautiful thing. All these ruuskies running and creetchating for help as their gullivers get cracked and zoobies kicked out of thier stinking krovvy rots.
Most beautiful Estonian summer has begun! Bring your chains!
Triona Carey
what a good read and so true
Yes, it suits the victim rhetoric very nicely, doesn't it. ;-)
hey kristjan...let me tell you, germans see that red army monument next to our house of parliament not as humilation...rather as a memorial for the liberators...like it or not, thats the truth!
hey kristjan...let me tell you, germans see that red army monument next to our house of parliament not as humilation...rather as a memorial for the liberators...like it or not, thats the truth!
OK.
We, on the other hand, don't see the Soviet soldier as a liberator. Might have something to do with the fact that he forgot to leave for half a century. OK?
Spin... hmm... I'm from Belgium (living in Tallinn). I can tell you that police in Belgium would never ever allow looting to take place. Never. Ever.
I can't imagine that the Estonian police would. I can however imagine that "politics" like to see legitimate protest degenerate into looting and riots. Before it was a serious debate with some valid points on both sides. Now it is just scum stealing stuff.
And not a lot of professionalism from either side... Riot police is behaving like bears, picking on whoever already fell down, rioters don't seem to have a strategy at all. I did better in my student days...
And not a lot of professionalism from either side... Riot police is behaving like bears, picking on whoever already fell down, rioters don't seem to have a strategy at all. I did better in my student days...
Congratulations. This is the 1st time this has happened in Estonia. Hence the lack of professionalism.
dast!
We did not start these wars. For us, everybody is a villain.
Justin,
Watch out you too. Estonian language is HARD. You see what it's doing to these people trying to learn all the 14 cases for years!? It is these irregular verbs that's driving Russians over the edge. We knew it was coming. Other than that, Russians are very decent people. You see how they care about their heritgage and honour and such. It's just that Estonian language is so damn hard.
How do you say "Hugo Boss kauplus" ilmaütlevas käändes?
I am amazed you haven't blown your lid yet. ;-)
Yes Justin, watch out
because Molotov and Ribbendrop concluded their pact exactly because they couldnot agree about the ilmaütlev case in Estonian.
And You may kick us out as well. Because so much blogging is dangerous to your mental health. Mine is gone.
@Agu-Enrik Ubailves ... i dont have a problem with naming the things done by the red army in the course of the war...not at all...the thing is that you shouldn't get stuck with comparing which system/army/regime did more harm and which less ...
the thing is that you shouldn't get stuck with comparing which system/army/regime did more harm and which less ...
That's what I said as well! :-)
Kristjan,
looks like someone has replied to you for me.
Clockwork Orange,
are we having a nazi here?
Kristjan,
Yes, it suits the victim rhetoric very nicely, doesn't it. ;-)
bollocks. im not acting victim. im just saying that a stupid nationalist government has spoiled what has settled down over recent years.
We, on the other hand, don't see the Soviet soldier as a liberator. Might have something to do with the fact that he forgot to leave for half a century. OK?
ok but are you so sure about the outcome of the nazis winning the war? would it be half a century? or maybe longer? again, im not backing the soviets, but y dont eastern germans move monuents while they also never liked to be occupied for same 50 years?
Anonüümne, i agree with Kristjan, however it must be prevented and not provoked instead of acting once it happened.
Will this cool off the real estate boom?
Once the foreigners get spooked enough, maybe we can buy our country back?
oi, Sergei, so only nazis like violence? Oh, I am sorry. So these people out there vandalizing and fighting and shouting fashisty, fashisty are actually nazis?
That's EXACTLY what I thought.
looks like someone has replied to you for me.
Clockwork Orange,
are we having a nazi here?
A nazi, an idiot, or a joker.
bollocks. im not acting victim. im just saying that a stupid nationalist government has spoiled what has settled down over recent years.
Alright. I, on the other hand, blame extremists in Estonia, and imperialists in Russia. Perhaps we can agree to disagree?
ok but are you so sure about the outcome of the nazis winning the war? would it be half a century? or maybe longer?
No, I'm not sure about that. Clearly the best solution would have been a Soviet liberation, followed by a Soviet withdrawal from Estonia after the war. I wonder why that didn't happen. ;-)
Oh that's right! The Estonians had voluntarily joined the Soviet Union by then! :-D
again, im not backing the soviets, but y dont eastern germans move monuents while they also never liked to be occupied for same 50 years?
Maybe because they don't encourage tensions in the former East Germany?
bollocks. im not acting victim. im just saying that a stupid nationalist government has spoiled what has settled down over recent years.
What exactly has settled down? As we see now, we still have a number of people in our country who are anti-Estonian. Who publicly despise the very country they live in. I'm glad this fact finally got to the open, because people have been suspicious for a long time. Now at least we can put the scum in jail, not just see them occasionally murdering people or being overdosed in tv police programs.
i hate repeating myself, but im not backing the rioters, i hate them same as i hate your national front.
and your nickname speaks for itself for those who read the book, and supports your comments fully.
thats for Clockwork Orange.
What exactly has settled down? As we see now, we still have a number of people in our country who are anti-Estonian. Who publicly despise the very country they live in. I'm glad this fact finally got to the open, because people have been suspicious for a long time. Now at least we can put the scum in jail, not just see them occasionally murdering people or being overdosed in tv police programs.
Yes... Some people certainly deserve to go to jail. But there are also a lot of manipulated people there, who will probably grow up to be decent citizens.
Punishing all participants will not bring about the Endlösung we are looking for. :-P (See? I make joke. ;-))
Andres,
What exactly has settled down? As we see now, we still have a number of people in our country who are anti-Estonian.
but hell dont u see it provoked? fucking hell mate have u seen any people ppl rioting before our lovely new gvrnmnt decided to move the graves? whos raised tensions?
as for junkies overdosed thats a kind of sub-effect of integration in the way it was introduced, which is explained in the blog post abve.
whos raised tensions?
I know, I know! Me, me! ;-)
(See? I make another joke. ;-) It wasn't me. I just pretended that I wanted to answer the question. ;-))
Yes, of course you could call it a provocation. But the government was RIGHT in the end to do this. We can't play by the rules of Russia and the likes of those vandals forever. We have to preserve some dignity. Just because Russia is big and powerful and those looters are stupid and uneducated doesn't mean that we should bend over before them. Hell no! They are the ones who are mistaken. Yes, of course the government should have done more to explain the situation. But with such a propaganda storm from Russia, it was a pointless effort anyway.
again you are messing the reason with the outcome.
i repeat myself, there were no riot before the decision to move the bones, same as there were no clashes, except the cases nazis turned up.
We can't play by the rules of Russia and the likes of those vandals forever.
have you ever been bothered by Russia concerned with the monument before.
have you ever seen vandals before nearby?
what are the russian rules you played?
The 'forever' in my sentence was not needed.
We didn't play by Russia's rules but Russia wants us to do that real bad. Or maybe they did it to provoke all those clashes and destabilize Estonia, who knows. The president is a KGB agent after all. And even when every reasonable country in the world has said that this is Estonia's internal affair, Russia is STILL ANNOYING US. I mean what the fuck, this is a criminal act against Estonia because it's fueling up more protests. Russia obviously wants to play the game, Russia couldn't care less about the bones, they're just an excuse. Just like they are an excuse for the pro-Russia and anti-Estonia minded forces in Estonia. This has little to do with the war-dead. It's all about opposing the sovereign Estonian government.
i repeat myself, there were no riot before the decision to move the bones, same as there were no clashes, except the cases nazis turned up.
Actually, all the problems started when some people started bringing the red hammer and sickel flag of the USSR to the statue. That angered a lot of people.
Also, anyone else find it sadly amusing to watch all those young kids yell faschist? I doubt they even know what faschism is.
Soviet liberators defecated into the piano of my mother and on the books of my father. The latter was taken to Siberia as well. Now, again russians have looted national library, Estonia theatre and arts institute. And you talk about bones. What we should do - to shit into your pianoes? And then you find poor Triana talking about apparheid so true. What did you think we did for 50 years - healing from wounds. We treat you with care - we would like to forgive, but we also would like to hear that somebody is sorry. Of course we always have been a bit reserved about russians since regaining independence.
"ppl rioting before our lovely new gvrnmnt decided to move the graves? whos raised tensions?"
Stealing vodka and jeans is rioting - no sorry, but I think you insult all intelligent Russians. Thief is thief and will be thief. And drunk Russian waving red or Russian flag in Estonia is in the context of the history of rape and kill (simplified Russian history then) no lesser insult than identifying and giving some soviet bones proper reburial.
TO:
sergei said...
as for junkies overdosed thats a kind of sub-effect of integration in the way it was introduced, which is explained in the blog post abve.
Point taken- hm, to an extent. You see, lots of Russians (and Russian-speakers) were employed at all-Soviet military industrial complexes during Soviet era. And when they lost their jobs - not necessarily 'coz of Estonia's mistakes - guess where their kids ended up? Ur right - on the streets. What i would have done -
provided free langauge course etc - these are Estonia's misgiving regarding the delicate ethnic conundrum
häh, bollocks, I know many nice Russians and sergei seems to be one. but sergei, have you thought that maybe Russian media might have some part of blame?
I mean, if you only read Russian news, you'd believe that we'll going to melt the BS for forging sickles to carve swastikas in the flesh of newborn Russians. hello - the statue will not cease to exist. and as for the bones - let's first see if there ARE any bones. and if there are, we try to identify them.it's not that hard, we're a small country and should be able to do what Soviet Union failed to do for 50 yrs
Agu-Enrik Ubailves ,
So Sergei, it all is still because of bones? Tell me about the bones, what do dey mean to russians. We just do not understand.
if you had seen, i dont know if you had, your grands crying by the knocked down statue you would have known the answer.
Andres,
And even when every reasonable country in the world has said that this is Estonia's internal affair
what are those reasonable counties? latvia and finland?
even germans who started the war would not allow it.
I agree with whoever said about the russian media, but i could all have been avoided by not touching the monument.
Agu-Enrik Ubailves , i respect your personal feelings but y i should not expect the same for kids of those died. you defended yourself, russian "aljosha" defended himself and russians here in estonia, read his family. wheres the difference?
mina , did you at least try to read what i said?
plasma-jack, even if you find none, it still hurts feelings of those coming here every 9th may.
what im trying to say is that istead of provoking masses ( i know there thieves and scum) would not it be easier and safer to leave it as is and restrict the nationalists from turning up on every 9th of may. if the gvrnment sais it all done to avoid clashes between both sides radicals.
what im trying to say is that istead of provoking masses ( i know there thieves and scum) would not it be easier and safer to leave it as is and restrict the nationalists from turning up on every 9th of may.
"Parem õudne lõpp kui lõputu õudus." That's the whole point. ;-)
Guys, what the hell? All this crap has been said hundreds of times before and is totally irrelevant right now.
We are dealing with a situation where our towns (our home) are in danger, our policemen and woman (Estonian and Russian and whoever) brutally attacked, property of our people (Estonians and Russian and whoever) deliberately destroyed... By a scum - gang of drunk looting lowlifes, shouting "Ros-si-ya" and "CCCP" destroying everything in their path. And don't you dare call that scum Russians!
I personally can't understand why we shoot the dogs with rabies (who themselves can't help it) and at the same time let run free the parasites who hurt others on purpose.
Or a very significant part of the whole point, anyway.
But why is cemetary worse place to put flowers to than a trolley stop? Just because that Ansip chose the location and he obviously can't be up for any good? I mean, I'm not picking a fight, I really don't understand. Why?
I personally can't understand why we shoot the dogs with rabies (who themselves can't help it) and at the same time let run free the parasites who hurt others on purpose.
Just take it easy, and let the police do their work. Everything so far has been done correctly. The damage to the property, and all the cuts and bruises are, in the end, insignificant.
Just take it easy, and let the police do their work.
Oh, I'm taking it super easy. Cry and sit home at night and go to central town in the morning to help my friends clean up the mess at their stores. Like I did today.
That was just a random thought, that pops to my head everytime I see something that horrible and pointless (France, New Orleans and so on)
Good man! ;-) Except for the crying bit. :-P
And the random thought bit. :-P Otherwise - perfect! :-)
Just made a car-tour in downtown. I have to spend this night awake and near TLU so I tried to make it interesting.
And of course, scars of vandals are visible. Including Inglise Kolledž - windows smashed and Estonia Theatre ... but it was silent. I have never seen so silent city center - friday 2 am.
I made a 2-hour walking trip to downtown. Barely an Estonian in sight, mild looting (you get used to it so fast).
Followed the trouble - checking things out and informing others seemed to have more point than sitting in the empty Levikas. i surely earned my penny today
> I'm not picking a fight, I really don't understand. Why? <
Perhaps, because the whole affair with the monument was designed to provoke and insult less-than-purebread Estonians? There was no real (non-national-hatred) reason to do it at all, and even less now, so close to May 0th.
The age old estonian adage just foudn proof here: EI MAKSA SITTA TORKIDA. Remember that kids!
Had we left that monstrum alone and instead tried to market it to the WWII buffs as the last place to meet and greet real or wannabe WWII participants, we could have made money off of it. Now what we got?
Underestimating Russian stupidity always hits you in the face. What happened here, is exactly what we deserved for not being clever.
Oh. By the way. Trust me on the Russian stupidity issue. I was once married to one. :-)
I had a chance to observe it close up, shall I say.
I had a chance to observe it close up, shall I say.
Yes, and that's exactly why you're full of crap. You're under the influence of emotions. As are the looters. But, thankfully, not the police.
f u
Eile puhkes Tõnismäel lahing Eesti pärast. Selle lahingu alustamist oli Moskva kavandanud ammu ja kogu oma siinse agentuuri selle nimel ka tööle rakendanud. Öiseid sündmusi Tallinnas arvesse võttes võime praegu kahtluseta väita, et rünnakut Eesti riikluse vastu oleks alustatud varem või hiljem - võimalik, et 9. mail - nüüd algas see asjaolude sunnil aga lihtsalt mõnevõrra varem.
Tõnismäele kogunenud venelaste eesmärk oli selge: plats vallutada ja seal kuni 9. maini lakkamatu guljanie korraldada, seejärel aga Vene saatkonna vahendusel Eesti valitsusele dikteerida tingimused, millede täitmise järel ekstremistide jõudemonstratsioon lõpetatakse.
Siinkohal peab valitsus, politsei ja kogu eesti avalikkus arvestama, et eile peeti sõjas Eesti pärast maha alles esimene lahing. On enam kui tõenäoline, et ajapikku haarab puhkenud võitlus üha uusi ja uusi sündmusi ja inimesi ning kokku kujuneb sellest proovikivi eesti rahvale küsimuses, kas me väärime oma riiki, kas me suudame selle eest seista ja kas me mõistame, et mitte meie pole alustajad, vaid et meile on arenevad sündmused Moskva poolt peale surutud.
See tähendab ka, et eestlased peavad loobuma oma mugavast individualismist ja hea elu kummardamisest ning vajadusel füüsiliseltki valitsusele appi tulema. Ammugi ei saa me endale täna aga enam lubada tülitsemist, üksteise süüdistamist ja targutamist selle üle, kuidas me tänavatel märatsevate vene pättide hingeelu tundma ja mõistma peaksime.
Praegu pole meil enam taganemisteed! Vene marurahvuslased, impeeriumi ja NSV Liidu meelsed tuleb karmi käega maha suruda. Nii karmi käega, et üha rohkemad neist otustavad Eestist lahkuda või põgeneda. Ainult see tagab meile iseseisvuse jätkumise, peremeheõigused oma kodumaal ja lõppkokkuvõttes ka kodurahu.
Eesti, jää kindlaks! Eestlane, kaitse kodu!
Before it was a serious debate with some valid points on both sides. Now it is just scum stealing stuff.
Yep. If they are going to present their point more sympathetically, here's some clues:
1) Get an Estonian speaking leader so that Mom and Dad in Viljandimaa understand you on the evening news.
2) Condemn - over and over again - the actions of the USSR in Estonia. This will buy you a feeling of trsutworthiness.
3) Sever ties with the Russian foreign ministry and openly criticize them -- again, the trustworthiness issue.
Once you establish that, and throw the bums like Zarenkov and others out, and establish your own "Estonian Slavic" identity where you speak for yourselves and there are no red flags, and no Russian flags, and just Estonian flags, why then you will have put yourself in a great position to get what you want, whatever that is.
Until then -- and thanks to the looting -- the Russian youth position is now "criminal"
Watch out you too. Estonian language is HARD. You see what it's doing to these people trying to learn all the 14 cases for years!? It is these irregular verbs that's driving Russians over the edge. We knew it was coming. Other than that, Russians are very decent people. You see how they care about their heritgage and honour and such. It's just that Estonian language is so damn hard.
It's not so bad. It just takes some attitude readjustment.
You just have to look in the mirror and say, 'this is going to take awhile.'
It's not the cases that bug me. If you listen enough, you'll start to 'feel' the right case.
It's my in-laws country accents that are impenetrable. My brother-in-law ends his crackling sentences with "va" which is "või" in hurried Karksi speak.
If I can one day understand everything he's saying, I'll feel mighty good about myself.
I know. Understanding foreign languages is like having a third eye or something. The irony will be then that once you'll understand what they are saying in their Karksi slang, you'll soon get a headache from how stupid and shallow it all is. Trust me. There was a time I did not understand anything what americans spoke. :-)
I am watching "End of Suburbia" right now. I think we, estonians are screwed. It is all about the dwindling energy resources rather than some stupid flags or history or any of that crap. The game that is played right now is far above our heads and future historians will write about it in their books (assuming there will be future with books and such). Germany needs energy and it is going to sell us to the Russians again. You'll see. We are all pawns in a global game. Estonia happens to at in the faultlines and it is bound to go under. It is sad. We had some nice songs and stories.
Perhaps, because the whole affair with the monument was designed to provoke and insult less-than-purebread Estonians? There was no real (non-national-hatred) reason to do it at all, and even less now, so close to May 0th.
so. the problem is not the monument's location at the cemetery, which is fine. the problem is that Estonians dare to make decisions. right?
Chickens have come home to roost for the Estonians. The Discrimanation that Russian Estonanians face has made them rebel. you cannont deny equal rights to 25% of your population. i believe 10% are denied citizenship due to a rubbish excuse that they do not know the estonian language properly.
Well the 25% of the country the majority has discriminated againshed will now come out fighting - and this shitty little racecist country may be destroyed.
I think Russia will also cut off your gas you bunch of raceists.
Well the 25% of the country the majority has discriminated againshed will now come out fighting - and this shitty little racecist country may be destroyed.
Should I change my tagline to "shitty little raceist country"?
The problem with the Russian nationalists ... is that nobody likes you.
Americans watch your goose-stepping soldiers in Red Square and think: "those people are fucked up!"
Nobody likes Mr. Putin. Diplomats shake Mr. Lavrov's hand, but -- nobody really likes him either.
So your only way to get attention is to act like an angry teenager all the time.
As for the Western Europeans that wish to feel superior -- whither Theo van Gogh? What about the 7/7 attacks? What about riots all over France last year?
If France is European then Estonia is certainly as European.
For those "shitty little raceist" French force their minorities to speak French -- the bastards!
Noone knows how many soldiers are buried on the site. There are believed to be -- 14.
The memorial is not being destroyed, it's being moved.
Leave it to Russians, who still think they are part of the Great and Glorious Oily Tsarist, No Wait, Sovok Russia, to stir up trouble for no reason at all.
Russkies love misery - it makes them happy.
Russkies are a bunch of misery-loving pukes.
The good thing is, as La Russophobe says - there is no one as good at eliminating Russians as - Russians.
They did it with gulags, they did it with psychiatric prisons, they did it with trips to Siberia - in all sorts of ways.
Now they think that they ought to rule Estonia.
And Ukraine. And Latvia. And Iran. And Georgia. And Belarus. And Germany. And on and on.
What a bunch of miserable pukes.
Oh, yeah, I forgot ---
"for example one guy states that Russians in Estonia are forbidden from speaking their language in public"
The misery-loving Russkie pukes use that line EVERYWHERE.
And they conduct trade wars with everyone.
Well, except of course, when they are exporting weapons to Iran, or killing people with Polonium.
Russkies love misery - it makes them very happy.
The Georgians have a great billboard for their wine, which has been banned in Russkie-land:
"Drink Georgian wine - it's more freedom than is allowed in Russia."
oh, yeah - one more thing.
GO ESTONIA!
The whole world is watching, and they are on your side!
Regarding the above rant as a Russian Estonian I can only respond with the truth
Russians in Estonia have been living in Estonia for over two hundred years many came in during the 1940 nearly fifty years ago they compose of nearly 25% of the population. Most were born in Estonia.
When Estonia separated itself from the Soviet Union the ethnic Estonians were given citizenship but not the Estonian Russians who were left without citizenship, stateless and without a right to vote.
In effect a state of apartheid existed with certain government jobs like police, army civil service barred to Russian speaking Estonians. Russian speaking Estonians even could not travel as they were stateless.
This deplorable situation was condemned by human rights groups through Europe and some EEC governments. The Estonians were forced as give citizenship but they quickly put up a barrier, the Russians now needed to do a language test. The test was made very difficult. A survey reveled that 90% of Estonian speakers who were given the test failed. After further protests the standard was lowered. However ten percent of Estonia’s population still is not allowed to vote are steles. The Other Russian minority has now been improvised by the raciest policies of the Estonian government.
I agree with the previous comment. The chickens have come hope to roost for the Estonian nationalists – Their raciest and discriminatory policies have caused this rebellion
With 25% of your population dissatisfied Estonia is in danger of ceaseing to be a viable state
I think you might be right that language exam might be too harsh yadda yadda.
But you know what? Thanks to your PR nobody wants to hear your arguments for a while. Chanting Rossija and holding Russia's flags shows one thing - these people want to live in Russia. Estonians don't. So do the math.
Yes! I agree with the above post.
Estonia is a shitty little raceist country!
We should not have allowed these people to join the EU unitil they had equal rights for all their citizens.
If this racist SHIT carries on any longer we should give the ALL back to Russia
GIVE ALL YOUR CITIZENS FULL RIGHTS IF YOU WISH TO STAY IN EUROPE OR WE WILL ALLOW THE THE RUSKIES IN RUSSIA CONTROL YOU - LITTLE SHITS
who did the Art Academy discriminate? they take in Russians, too. Russians are also allowed to Estonian Opera. why should we want to have citizens that hate everything Estonian and have no mercy for their own home towns? you won't find any friends this way.
dear anonüümne
if you are seen looting in one of the thousands of photographs made tonight and yesterdays' night, you don't have to worry about Estonian problems any more. you can live in peaceful, tolerant and democratic Rossiskaja Federatsija, instead.
As for your kind reference of the occupation - we won't forget that it remains a possibility. And now we know for certain that there's a 5th column inside Estonia. We won't forget that, either.
Now that Estonia is in the EEC it should adopt civilized values. The French living in England do not need to know English they get citizenship after five years residence. It applies to most EEC countries including the USA the five years residence test. This nonsense about sitting a language test is like the apartheid against the blacks in S Africa.
Not many people in Europe know how you treat your minorities. But if the Russian minority riots everyone will know.
Turkey is not allowed in Europe because it discriminates against minorities. Maybe many civilized people will start to demand that Estonia be kicked out of the EU.
Anyway if no this discrimination is not ended then this little country will be split into two half for Russian speakers and half for the Estonians
DO YOU WANT A SPLIT INTO TWO COUNTRIES. YOU MIGHT BE IN THE MAJORITY BUT WE CAN FIGHT AND WEAPONS LIE JUST BEYOND THE BORDER WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE THIS IS OUR HOME. DO YOU WANT A SITUATION LIKE BAGHDAD WITH BOMBS BETWEEN SHIA AND SUNNI
SO STOP THE DISCRIMINATION LETS HAVE AN EQUAL SOCIETY OTHERWISE WE ARE BOTH DOOMED
Jaffa: I don\t quite understand what you are saying. It's like saying Green Card holders are discriminated against in the States. By and large, non-citizens have every right Estonians do (they can start a business, have public schools). On the street level, people really don\t make a big deal of ethnicity (hooliganism aside). The problem is that under a 1993 Russian decision, anyone who has not opted for citizenship in a former Sovet republic is automatically a Russian Federation citizen. Estonia does not give dual citizenship.
By "end discrimination," do you mean Estonians should speak Russian, including to each other? ;)
to Kristopher: Obviously you are being ludicrus -- but on example, Tallinn city policy, not selling alcohol after 11 at night -- what is that, if that not in content a anti-Russian discriminatory law.
Whoever said Estonia had first great cultural miniority automonmy laws in the world. I would say -- no progress in 70 years.
Is there a monument in Red Square to the tens of thousands who were trundled off in the middle of the night never to see their beloved homeland again? I don´t think so.
All of you screaming and spitting out insults like the EU should kick us out etc. Xavier Solana called the Estonian president and said that the EU understands and backs us on this. So don't worry, Europe knows that Russia is scum. They just can't say it out loud.
The “Russian speaking Estonians” Those who whom were born in Estonia and in some cases whose fathers were born here - were refused citizenship on the grounds they could not speak Estonian - they had to do a test. This is racist.
The problem is that “The Estonian speaking Estonians” have not fully accepted these fellow countrymen because of language and race. Its like saying that all the Hebrew speaking Jews regardless of how many generations have lived in America, has to pass an English test in the USA to be Americans or all the Italian speakers have to do the same even if they were born in the USA and lived there all their lives.
The Russian law you mention above has nothing to do with it.
Estonians might not think this is an issue at street level – “But Russian speaking Estonians” who are denied citizenship despite being Estonian by “Estonian speaking Estonians” SURE DO THINK IT AN ISSUE that is why in frustration they trashed the street. It was not the war memorial the real issue, the real issue is many years of discrimination.
Perhaps the problem lies that you all have not accepted that Estonia is a multicultural society with equal rights for everybody and dual equal languages. A 25% minority is A VERY LARGE minority.
The majority wishes to force it views on the minorities
Then this is like Nazi Germany - One Volk - One Reich.
This is nonsense fascist and nationalistic. Idiotic in the context of Estonia’s large Minority who have lived long enough to be sons of the soil. You are de facto multicultural – all cultures should have equal rights.
If you Estonian speaking Estonians DO NOT grant equality to all sons of your soil, then you are playing a very dangerous game. History has shown the seeds of communal conflict start small. After which sectarian hatred is difficult to extinguish.
Look what happened very quickly to the former Yugoslavia. Even very small minorities got their own country – AND the flames spread very quickly. Politicians now will take full advantage; they will play the race, communal and sectarian card to their separate constituencies. Both Russian speaking and Estonian speaking. The flames will spread unless action is taken now to End the racist policy.
BY END DISCRIMINATION I MEAN ANYONE CAN SPEAK ANY LANGUAGE IF YOU ARE BORN AND LIVE IN A COUNTRY YOU ARE A CITIZEN
STOP TALKING LIKE A NAZI GERMAN YOU WISH TO DECIDE CITIZENSHIP ON BLOOD, RACE, CULTURE, THEN THE 25% MINORITY ESTONIANS WILL OFF COURSR BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST WANT THEIR OWN COUNTRY WHERE THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION
Study these Conflits
Northern IREland (IRA)
Yogoslavia (Serbs, Bosnians, Croats)
Iraq (Shia Sunni)
Shri Lanka (Tamil Tigers Verses Sinalese)
Sudan (Muslin verses Tribal)
Rawand ( Hutu veres Tutsi)
Kashmir (Hind verses Muslim)
To name a few where millions have died
What makes your country an exception
STOP DISCRIMINATION OR SUFFER
DO YOU WANT A SPLIT IN TWO
ESTONIA IS FOR EVERYBODY
Russians, please go to school and learn civics, history etc before you come and scream here. It just makes you look bad. All Russians who lived in Estonia prior to 1940 were automatically granted citizenship despite of their language skills. It was only the workers brought here by the USSR (from a legal aspect they were brought here illegally) who had to pass the test. So please be quiet and just study Estonian and occasionally read a history book published after 1990. Then you don't have to make a fool out of yourselves.
Kinda interesting discussion you have here guys. You know, while looking at all that what's happening in Tallinn I just feel ashamed for Estonia. Sorry to say, but 'wise' is not a word to describe your leaders. Fueling hatred would never get anybody anywhere. Though, I really think that (unfortunately) your little lovely country is just a pawn in a big power game. Again.
Giustino,
I suggest that you disable anonymous comments for the time being.
You're starting to get a lot of monkeys and are just stopping by to fling poo, like some of the recent posters.
Back up towards the center of the comments, though:
Belgian Anonüümne said ...
Spin... hmm... I'm from Belgium (living in Tallinn). I can tell you that police in Belgium would never ever allow looting to take place. Never. Ever.
Really? Then I guess those two or three days in Antwerp in 2002 were my imagination. I was there the week after, and almost canceled my trip. There were riots over some Arab youth being killed, with some of the looting that we're seeing in Tallinn.
I guess that makes ME the problem. Civil disorder follows me around. :-p
But please, don't be condescending to the natives. No country has a monopoly on the better angels of human nature.
According to this article, -- -- Russian youth groups like Nashi are staying at 69 Euro-a-night hotels in Tallinn. I would like to know more about this angle, and how much has been instigated from outside.
Everything has been instigated by "The Stop State Apartheid in Estonia" movement.
There objective is end the race discriminatin against Russian speaking Estonians.
The rally was peaceful until the police decided to beat people up.
Russian speaking Estonians are very angry and frustrated by this wicked discrimination against 25% of Estonians.
The struggle for democracy has begun. This us supported by Human Rights Groups all over europe
Hi
Estonians are really nice people. I am suprised that after 1940 sixty years ago some of your citizens still cannot get citizenship.
I heard this on Radio 4 In London where there is a discussion on this issue
22 concentration camps were established by Nazis with cooperation from Estonian collaborators in such a small country in such a short time.
Less than a dozen of Estonian Jews had survived. Would you like me to provide you with more data about your, Estonian, 'peaceful' behavior in not so long ago past?
Perhaps you liked the Nazi's and hate the Russians - You Etonians were collaborators in the death camps.
The Russian save europe from the Nazi and sacrificed 27 million people while you Estonians helped with rhe death camps.
Read your history and be ashamed with what you did to the war memorial
Dear me, do we really have these hate sprouters even here. For what it's worth, Stalin was a similar psychopathic killer as Hitler. Estonia lost a quarter of its citizens by 1945, after which followed bloody repressions, forced collectivization of its agriculture. A civil society was destroyed by primitive, hysterical forces. National elites, national culture, national economy and state were annihilated. Russians fought bravely against Nazis commanded by a psychopatic dictator, but once they crossed the Estonian border and didn't return to their home, they became robbers and aggressors.
Estonians were not significantly involved in Nazi crimes. Less so than ordinary Russians that participated often willingly in mass killings of their compatriots in Stalinist repressions. It is tragic that those innocent victims have been forgotten, even damned, by their own nation. Such shame, such horror.
I think I need to remind about the history. There was'nt such a country as Estonia before 1918! It was Lenin who decided to give the people living there their own country. Before that it was always a part of Russia. One can not talk about occupation of one's own territory! After the WWII the USSR made this country as a part of the Union without taking their independence off. They were a part of USSR as the Estonian Republic. What occupation you are all talking about
Another thing that is quite scary about the comments by Estonians in this discussion. They don't hesitate to call migrants from Asia "savages", to call Russians "scum" and publicly admit that they don't like "them". Them all, just because they are Russians. And now the Estonian government has (re)moved the anti-fascist memorial. This kind of nationalism of a small nation which was oppressed by its neighbours for a long time is understandable. But it can hardly arouse any sympathy.
One can not talk about occupation of one's own territory!
Good stuff. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia#History
It is funny how desperate Estonians to make everyone think that 'these barbarian Russians' destroying nice European city'.
One of the biggest crimes committed by Stalin was cover-up for all these Eastern European countries. They actually killed as much as Germans did, in some cases even more - but as 'new socialist countries' they avoided Nuremberg Tribunal.
That means they are really don't understand what they did and they will continue campaign of lies and insults on Russians.
There is definetely one good thing about globalization - it has no place for tiny and worthless languages like Estonian.
Estonians are good and nice people, there is no need to argue with them. It is their politicians, backed by the west, who intimidate the people of the wrong racial and cultural background, who exclude them from society and deny them basic human rights.Estonia is a beautiful, wonderful country but a horrible political regime. I wouldn't call it "Nazi" but it is clearly consists of racist and mad people (just watch some of those politicains speak: so much hatred!)
It is funny how desperate Estonians to make everyone think that 'these barbarian Russians' destroying nice European city'.
Yes, we are desperate. :-) I'm actually about to jump out of a 5th floor window with my AK-47, disguise myself as a Russian (easy!) and go rip apart the town. Oh, the desperation!! :-D
I cannot pronounce the Estonian name correctly, but one of the top governors calld Russian youth "children of a wolf" yesterday.
And now how should we treat that nice country?
Really disgusting things are happening these days.
Many Russians have a bad knowledge of history. Many Estonians regard Estonia as an incubator project for Estonian language and culture.
"As for me and my house", Estonia means a legal democtratic state in the first place.
We have to go through a very humiliating procedureWe have to take a language test, a test on Latvian history, a test on culture. I've lived all my life in this country and of course I know its history, culture, and language. I had to pledge loyalty to this government, and if I protest against unjust laws that to a large extent aim at discriminating against Russian-speaking population, I'm declared disloyal
It's not really a Russian vs Estonian issue. 90% of it is driven by people who are existentially bored, who re not rich but not poor either, and not very politically educated. Transplant them to another city and you would hear them shouting against the WTO.
There's a good word in Estonian, modernne, which is a little more nuanced than just meaning "modern."
For many, it seems to be a modernne vs mittemodernne issue.
In spite of themselves, people miss the old, inefficient shabby life -- milk in plastic bags insetad of cartons, buckwheat and millet slop in public cafeterias, central markets, department stores with three levels of receipts. They're angry at Estonia's Scandinavianism -- that kiosks no longer sell alcohol and a subcosncious reason they vent their ire on places like R-Kiosk. But they also like the new technologies, and they want the best of both worlds.
Scott,
Sellepärast, et TEIE olete nii palju targem ja vanem kui mina, mina olen otsustanud et anonüümised kommentaarid on nüüd keeletud.
Giustino
Can anyone answer my question? Can the removal of the statue be regarded as a bridge that will make relations with Russian minority more friendly and tolerant or is it blowing the bridge? Is it closing the gap or fueling hate? Is Estonian majority sincerely interested in building better relations with Russian minority?
n-lane said...
Many Russians have a bad knowledge of history. Many Estonians regard Estonia as an incubator project for Estonian language and culture.
Estonia is, is supposed to be and will always be an incubator project for Estonian language and culture - this is the constitutional priority and main function of the country.
This however does not mean that minorities should be persecuted, but it means that the Estonian language and culture always come first.
When it comes to the violent vandalizing degenerates in Tallinn, I would not mind to see them all crucified along the highway to Narva.
Kind regards,
Purc
Konstantin said...
Can anyone answer my question? Can the removal of the statue be regarded as a bridge that will make relations with Russian minority more friendly and tolerant or is it blowing the bridge? Is it closing the gap or fueling hate? Is Estonian majority sincerely interested in building better relations with Russian minority?
You can be sure that after the massive criminal and decadent behavior in Tallinn no sane Estonian wants to hear anything about the "needs of the Russian minority" etc. One does not negotiate with terrorists!
The Russians themselves blew the bridge up with their criminal behavior and left themselves stranded on a deserted island.
Have fun on the island!
Konstantin,
The events that are going on will, in the long run, help build the bridge, because they discredit Russian radicals, which will enable Russian moderates to take the stage.
Which will enable a healthy dialogue to begin.
Yes, we Estonians are sincerely interested in building good relations with ethnic Russians in Estonia.
And never mind evil purc. He/she - like many - is currently under the influence. ;-)
Is Estonian majority sincerely interested in building better relations with Russian minority?
The inherited situation from the Soviet period is one of two communities.
Because of social problems -- ie. a need for better integration to assist Russian-speakers get higher paying jobs and a more satisfying life in Estonia, the government has undertaken policies that many on the outside -- Russia, Amnesty -- find reprehensible.
In an ideal world, the Russians would have 25 seats in the Riigikogu, and one quarter of the ministers would be of Russian descent, and so on.
But the Russian community has few well-integrated leaders, and the leaders it does have -- Klenski, Zarenkov -- are opportunists that won't function in the Estonian state because they don't even accept some basic facts. They still spout Stalinist history, and so they are automatically marginalized in a country that is 70 percent Estonian.
Meanwhile, Russia and some NGOs say "forcing" Russians in Estonia to learn and operate in Estonian somehow infringes on their "right to employment" and other such interesting concepts.
And because the questions about integrations are there, what you have is a community that appears to want conflicting things.
They want to stay in Estonia, but they don't want to integrate -- ie. learn Estonian, celebrate Estonian holidays, etc. They say they like Estonia, but they also say they like the country that killed its founders and deported large swaths of its population.
It's like they prefer to live in this little bubble where the USSR still exists. But it doesn't. I mean here we are 16 years after the fall of the empire, and there are 16 year olds (that don't even recall the Soviet era) acting like it still exists.
Recent moves by Postimees and Eesti Päevaleht to add Russian language news to their offering is a good sign. ETV has Russian programming, but I feel like some of the local Russians prefer Russian-controlled TV which is blatantly anti-Estonian.
The Russian state still apparently thinks it has some historical right to control this area, when historically it has always flip flopped between East and West. Yes, it was part of the Russian empire for 200 years. But it was also part of the Swedish empire for 150.
Now it is, by will, a part of the EU and NATO. This is a Western country under constant harrassment by a power hungry Russian government that exploits the local minority for domestic purposes.
I think Finnish PM Matti Vanhanen is right. Estonia will figure this out. They have so far and they will.
Estonia has been very lucky over the past 16 years. It made it into NATO and the EU. It's economy is booming. If this is the worst luck Estonia has, so be it.
When it comes to the violent vandalizing degenerates in Tallinn, I would not mind to see them all crucified along the highway to Narva.
Actually that's not a bad idea. Here's what I think.
These kids will now be stigmatized. They are being called criminals. At the same time, they aren't going anywhere.
What can be done to give them something to do, to include them in Estonian society more, to get them away from being drunk and looting and doing something productive?
Given the awful state of the Estonian infrastructure in some places, I don't see why New Deal-esque projects might not help.
It would get them out of Narva or Tallinn and pay them a good salary and at the same time they would get to "know" Estonia beyond their flat and TV set and help repair many of the roads, bridges, other infrastructure that desperately need renovation.
Ofer the work to anybody, but target the cities, and, especially target these kids that made off with the free booze and Hugo Boss the other night.
Estonians would of course like to have good-neighbourly relationships with all Russians. And they already do, my neighbour is a Russian who's not very good at Estonian, but they're trying and we get along normally, if they don't understand something, we can explain it to them in Russian too if necessary. The real problem here is the people from the so called 'Russian ghettos'. Aka Lasnamäe, Kohtla-Järve etc. They have no experience with Estonian people. They don't have to deal with them. They have lived in a purely Russian environment all their lives. For them it's obviously hard to understand what the Estonian Republic actually means. And that's a bad thing.
Some Russians are accusing Estonians like we don't want to have dialog etc. We really would, address us in a polite manner, remember that this is Estonia.. all Estonians don't have to start leaning Russian because you want us to. You have to accept the fact that you're a minority on someone else's land. Of course it's not your fault, you should blame the USSR (who you so much adore to our amazement).
All this said, we now get to the point of why Estonians sometimes hate Russians as a nation. Because you're SOOO proud of yourselves. A Russian doesn't apologize, a Russian doesn't do anything he's asked, a Russian is a true Russian only then when he gets to do what he likes (sometimes that's looting and beating). That's what we don't like. Stop being so fucking annoying and bossy. Then our attitude towards you will change too. Russians yelling "fascist" and other things that aren't true + beating up Estonians for speaking in Estonian IN ESTONIA aren't helping. And the Russian community is silently approving it. Hell, Russia is loudly approving it. < irony >This is surely the Estonians' fault...< / irony >
If anyone is still interested you have made the TV and radio news here in Australia.
Giustino, Tubli! :-)
I am assuming tonight will be MUCH more calm than the previous two nights, for two reasons 1) the police really cracked skulls on Parnu mnt. outside the Estonian theatre. 2) most of the troublemakers the last two nights, more than 700 of them, are in detention.
At least that's my theory.
Actually that's not a bad idea. Here's what I think. Giustino
It is an interesting idea. But first I would prove EvilPurc's mental ability of understanding such an indirect critique of his brutal sadistic ideas.
There is at least one uber-patriot among your commenters every time I come by. I've grown to like it :-)
P.S. I've read about your new blog-policy right now. Is it retroactive? :-)
P.S. I've read about your new blog-policy right now. Is it retroactive? :-)
I don't think so. There's just too much to edit and too little time.
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