reede, aprill 27, 2007

Let the Spinning Begin


Now that the main event is concluded, it's time for the spinning to begin. The Estonian Foreign Ministry fired off a note this morning that shows how the Estonian government is claiming victory and actively working to discredit the looters, who took all their anger at the Estonian government out by helping themselves to free booze.

Yesterday’s rioters found the police presence and the assembly of people to be a good reason to act destructively.

The rioters showed clearly that their real goal was to riot, destroy, break and loot.

These actions confirm that they have nothing to do with respecting and protecting the memories of those who fell during World War II.


Meanwhile, the Russians are considering -- and probably will -- sever diplomatic relations with Estonia.

Just a friendly reminder here, the Estonian government moved a monument from a central square to a cemetery. And the Russians consider that grounds for severing diplomatic ties. Will they take off their shoes and bang them on their desks when the vote is taken? And who will win this new propaganda war?

So many questions now exist that have yet to answer themselves.

278 kommentaari:

«Vanimad   ‹Vanemad   201–278/278
Anonüümne ütles ...

There is no need to delete anything retro-actively, I think. Extremist views are as much a part of this as anything else, and should be logged.

Giustino ütles ...

Sure. By the way, looks like they want to charge Linter with inciting a riot and put him in jail for up to 5 years. I'm sure that will work out just great.

This is reminding me alot of what happened in France (The riots in 2005) and The Netherlands (the murder of Theo Van Gogh).

It's pretty nasty. If the government is lenient on the pro-Russian activists that are supported through the Russian foreign ministry, then it could just go on and on and on.

If it is too harsh then it makes martyrs out of them. And because there is no honest dialogue between Russia and Estonia about the past, no one can reach the "ley bygones be bygones" point and move forward.

The Russian media should reconsider its endlessly anti-Estonian stance. Instability in Estonia actually isn't in their interest. Estonia is a NATO country, it's got the backing of Washington and Brussels. It's actions in Estonia inevitable draw other actors in (like Ban Ki-Moon, Javier Solana, Angela Merkel).

I'd like to see more calls for cool heads on all sides. And i'd like for the Estonian state to finish this job ASAP.

Anonüümne ütles ...

I think we can just sit back and let the justice system work. It is credible, and independent.

I think the main instigators will get as much as the law allows, while most participants will just get a slap on the wrist. Which would be as it should be, I think.

Things would cool down immediately if Savisaar would call for it, and stand behind the government. Because he doesn't do that and mocks and blames the government, things will cool down a little later.

On the plus side, this is the end of Savisaar, politically.

Kristopher ütles ...

We put Madisson and Kommer (guys on the other side of the spectrum) in jail for three or four years. So five years is certainly too harsh. As someone noted earlier, it was a riot, not a war or coup attempt -- there has been nothing going on the hill.

The notion of stripping residence permits (maybe this is just a malignant rumour) seems really ill-advised to me, though...

Anonüümne ütles ...

Kristopher,

Madisson and Kommer never organized anything like this against the Estonian Republic.

Excessive leniency is as dangerous as excessive harshness.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Sorry, I should have said excessive leniency is more dangerous than excessive harshness.

Wait, wut? ütles ...

Kristjan:

From your keyboard to God's years. His comments on this were really irresponsible. I'm paraphrasing:

According to Savisaar, police didn't come to the aid of the people because they were busy guarding the illegal removal of the bronze soldier.

"The monument was removed under cover of night, in secret, lying to the entire society. Was this the "honorable" relocation that they promised? Policemen were guarding the bronze soldier who wasn't actually there anymore. The city, her citizens and their property were sacrificed. While everyone's attention was on the rioting vandals, the police weren't sent to protect the people.

The problem is not just in the vandals, as the media is trying to paint it. There are agitators in every country. The problem lies in the honest and hard-working Russian people who have been loyal to Estonia and truly believed talk about integration. Their viewpoints went through a paradigm shift last night. All our efforts at integration are now irreparably damaged."

I guess it was as Marko Mihkelson, of Isa/ResP, said on ETV the morning after the first day.

He said, "I think some Estonian politicians saw their constituency on the street last night."

Eva ütles ...

Actually, Savisaar is the one who could of said something, and had a result. He is the one the "other" side listens to. But he decides to say nothing. Just point fingers (how easy is that?)and agitate people to fight some more. Oh, also , to behead our Prime Minister, who, for once, is taking somewhat responsibilty for all this.

Giustino ütles ...

I really wish Keskerakond would get a new point man and stop being Savisaarville.

There's plenty of room for moderation and "let's talk things out" in Estonian politics, but, quite honestly, I think Savisaar is happy they moved the monument.

He saw that and thought "more votes."

It's a pity. The guys a cynic.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Giustino,

I think you're wrong on Savisaar. He didn't want the statue to be moved, which is why he fought it. ;-)

To be popular with Russians, Savisaar has to seem powerful. Now he was powerless.

His doom, however, comes from the stupidity of the "protesters". No moderate person can accept what is going on, no matter the ethnicity.

And Savisaar is endorsing it! He's partly doing it because he has played himself into a corner with his previous statements, and partly because he didn't anticipate us all to close ranks and condemn this so univocally. ;-)

Unknown ütles ...

n-lane said...
It is an interesting idea. But first I would prove EvilPurc's mental ability of understanding such an indirect critique of his brutal sadistic ideas.

My statement on crucifixion is a symbolic condemnation of severe criminal activities. Even in my state of lacking mental capacity I believe in the principals of rule of law, therefore punishment should be legitimately exercised in accordance with law.

I was infuriated by this barbarianism/vandalism, as sadistic I may seem, I would never hurt a fly, but i do believe the punishments should be as harsh as the law maximally allows.

Unknown ütles ...

your blog is so nice place to be after reading all those comments on youtube. its good that there are still people left who think in depth instead of yelling tiblad valja. thumbs up.
Sergei

space_maze ütles ...

And I am glad that there are still Russians out there willing to talk about the situation and not just yell about Estonians being nothing but a pile of fascists :-) .. violence breeds prejudice breeds prejudice breeds violence. As such, these last few days have not been good for anyone in Estonia. More Estonians will see Russians as nothing but a pile of sub-human apes, only interested in plundering and looting, more Russians will see Estonians as nothing more but racist fascists, yelling to have them removed from their homeland.

I do actually feel sorry for Russians that do not actually feel offended by the simple existence of the Estonian state, and have been working hard on a peaceful coexistence in the nation. So much of their work, destroyed in so little time. I can only hope that once the dust settles, more and more Estonians will be able to only blame those responsible for this mess, and not Russians collectively.

Anonüümne ütles ...

As such, these last few days have not been good for anyone in Estonia.


I think you're very wrong, my good Sir! They have been great for every normal person in Estonia, when seen in the perspective of more than a few days. ;-)

Anonüümne ütles ...

Except the manipulated kids. I feel sorry for them.

Steve M ütles ...

I am really surprised by the over reaction by Russia on this issue, having Lavrov and Putin weigh in on this topic with such strong words. I hope for Russia's sake they do not put enact a economic blockade. The blockade against Georgia last year had little effect on the country , if fact the economy of Georgia is growing faster. The blockade made Russia look petty, it also hurt Armenia, which is a friend of Russia. The fact is Russia is not China. Other then oil and gas Russia does not export anything
Estonia really needs and it will just hurt their chances for entry into the WTO. The more Russia tries to bully, the weaker they look.

Anonüümne ütles ...

I hope for Russia's sake they do not put enact a economic blockade.


I really hope for Russia's long-term sake that they do. And sever diplomatic relations.

Come on, you Putinist motherfuckers. I dare you!

Anonüümne ütles ...

(Giustino, please don't moderate if someone replies emotionally. Let's flush some turds. ;-))

Wv Sky ütles ...

Great Video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKwdtmI-xs

Anonüümne ütles ...

Great Video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKwdtmI-xs



This is just stupid destructive revanchism. Exactly what Ilves told you not to do!

Giustino ütles ...

your blog is so nice place to be after reading all those comments on youtube. its good that there are still people left who think in depth instead of yelling tiblad valja. thumbs up.

YouTube is just awful. I tried to inject some common sense in there, but no one responds to it, they only respond to flame war.

What's sad is that it's all teenagers going back and forth on their computers.

In some way, I feel that we adults have failed the youth. There's just nobody wading in and taking control. Instead you have people in middle age fanning the flames (Madisson, Klenski) and ignorant teenagers responding to it.

I think that we adults need to be more proactive in society now. We have to condemn this kind of behavior and come up with ways to combat it. Because if we just leave them on their own, they are going to continue to be a huge headache for everyone.

Like most people, including perhaps yourself, I just want to work and go to the store to buy groceries and maybe do something interesting on the weekends.

I have no interest in 'getting even' for things that happened nearly 70 years ago. Why is that we, who are closer to these events in age, are not the ones on YouTube saying these stupid things?

And, as a sidenote, considering that Russians lived in Estonia before the USSR took over, it's not really founded in anyway to yell "tibla välja".

Anonüümne ütles ...

You're right, Guistino. Young people cannot be allowed to run amok like that. They simply don't yet have the mental faculties to fully understand what is going on, and can really ruin everything at a time when a society needs, above all, to look at things calmly and rationally.

That's the "protesting" I'm talking about. The YouTube stupidity is, of course, far less harmful. Unless emotions acquired on YouTube are converted into actions on the street.

plasma-jack ütles ...

But the Russian community has few well-integrated leaders, and the leaders it does have -- Klenski, Zarenkov -- are opportunists that won't function in the Estonian state because they don't even accept some basic facts.

I don't believe that our Russians consider Klenski and Zarenkov as leaders of any kind (otherwise they would vote for them). As Rannamäe said last night in Kuku Raadio, it would be nice if the government would hav chance to call a local sheik or mufti to have a dialogue - only they don't know whom to call.
But I would very much like to hear from Estonian-Russians themselves, if there's a person who could legitimately speak on behalf of the majority of them.

Also: n-lane, Sergei, Maksim or somebdoy, could you tell us what the Estonian-Russian media writes about the riots? I don't believe (or I hope it's not the case) that local Russian-speaking media takes only Russian-Russian stance ie "Fascists dancing on graves, police terror on the streets". I mean, very many local Russians probably feel really bad right now, even if their own cars and houses stayed safe. Two nights ago, I saw the rioters attacking Alfastar, which is an example of a successful local Russian business whose security guards are protecting Russian embassy. There's no nationalist logic behind that... then again, the Nazis also looted wrong-thinking German property on Kristallnacht.

Kristopher ütles ...

I'd like to see the topic of riots not touched at all for a while (especially as they are over and the police were relaxed most of last night and chatting with youths).

I suspect that microissues such as the composition and identities of rioters matters very little ... and that this is all very much driven by geopolitics and resources. Nord Stream etc. Nordic Stream - sounds very much like a country slogan, BTW.

Unknown ütles ...

Also: n-lane, Sergei, Maksim or somebdoy, could you tell us what the Estonian-Russian media writes about the riots? I don't believe (or I hope it's not the case) that local Russian-speaking media takes only Russian-Russian stance ie "Fascists dancing on graves, police terror on the streets".

both russian and estonian medias have been fueling further more hatred as of yet. unfortunately all i have access to now is russian delfi and news coverages in russia as there not many russian papers online and im in the UK now. so i can only comment on a response of russian russians, which is too hysterical i think. but some estonian papers also make my hair stand. have you read this one:
http://platon-ee.livejournal.com/21147.html
well, this article that seems to be a collective oppinion of all those at the oldest estonian newspaper, as theres no author, has been translated to russian, english and german, and ras been reprinted in liatvian, lithuanian, german and english papers, together with NY times. There'll be a hude resonance following that.
people posting political bollocks like this one both estonian and russian are only promoting more anger within youth, fucking morons.
Sergei.

Unknown ütles ...

oi, i gave the wrong link
heres the correct one:
http://www.postimees.ee/280407/esileht/arvamus/257707.php

Anonüümne ütles ...

Sergei, please understand that it is essential for moderate Russians to also distance themselves from the violence, and not blame the government.

Otherwise there can be no dialogue.

The Estonian government and the Estonian people are not going to hold talks with the animals that ripped our cities apart. These people we punish, not talk to.

Unknown ütles ...

moderate russians have and will be dintancing themselves from any violence, even those that went out on 27th to protest the removal. Did you happen to mention while watching all those videos that theres the same group of people looting and rioting, while hundreds are just passing by, and those freaks will get their prison terms soon.
But if media hysteria on both sides carries on, a single stone or bottle on the 9th will blow it up again. And im more than sure that some estonian radical will be there to provoke it. Though i wish the government would make at least one smart move and detain those skinheads together with russian looters.
Sergei

Anonüümne ütles ...

Sergei,

I'm sure the police is as harsh with ethnic Estonian trouble-makers as ethnic Russian ones.

And it seems to me that things are now pretty much under control, and tempers are beginning to cool.

I know it's a small number of people organizing it - that's it not your average Russian. But I would really like to see a moderate Russian leader now emerge and say that the violence was wrong, the government's plans are justified (i.e. understandable from an Estonian perspective, although regrettable from a Russian perspective), let's now start talking more from that basis.

But, unfortunately, I haven't seen it yet. All I see so far is Russian anger at what was done, with very little attempt to understand why.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Sergei, I agree with you. The article published in Postimees is certainly regretable and provokes violence. Both sides should stop blaming eachother.
Kristjan, moderate russians in fact have made this statement and have condemned violence. Read this: http://www.sloleht.ee/index.aspx?id=227367
I think its too much to ask from russians to say publicly that what goverment did was justified. But certainly, people from both sides should try to understand eachother and solve the problems through discussion.

Anonüümne ütles ...

I think its too much to ask from russians to say publicly that what goverment did was justified.


I think it is not, since it should be obvious to any person who is capable of individual thought, has respect for other cultures and nations, is honest and intelligent.

I know that Russians are fully capable of understanding what is being done, and so I wish they would already.

Of course, it is far more convenient to cling on to old attitudes...

Unknown ütles ...

im sure there are some decent loyal articles in estonian-russian papers as im communicating with many russians in Tallinn and most share my views im sure some journos do as well. but you wont see anything but barking from russia because the biggest mistake from estonian gvrnmnt was to remove the soldier with few days left before the V-day, which straight away turned it into a political issue instead of a security issue which was announced before. that was the lamest move that could have been taken. Getting into the political game with russia was not smart at all as russia will get away with things that Estonia will never get away with. The rioting and looting, and russian scum brodcasted around the world is now substituted with footage of "poor protesters beaten up and tied to posts" with blood and broken skulls distributed by russian media and with official comments followed. Who do you think is going to with in THIS game?
Our gvrnmnt should not have tried to stress its independence in such a manner, a quiet removal after 9th would have passed cause less trouble im sure.
i hope some people will learn on their mistakes.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Getting into the political game with russia was not smart at all as russia will get away with things that Estonia will never get away with.


Sergei,

I think it's clear to everyone now that Estonia has truth, justice and civility very firmly on their side. While Russia's position is that of lies, hipocracy and barbarity. Estonia will win the PR war. Read the Western press.

As for the timing, it's debatable. What is sure, however, in my opinion, is that when the protest turned violent, the statue had to be moved immediately.

Unknown ütles ...

im in the center of western press now and it has all turned upside down. english are coming to me and asking about estonian "cruel riot police"
what i meant was russia can get away with lies and barbarity as it has always been able to, hence the influence, but once such articles like the postimees one appear in ny times it will definately change the image. someone posted here about playing russian rules. ok the PR war you refer to is exactly playing russian rules. russia does not care about its image though it can afford it, but we (in Estonia) cant. and russia can easily spoil it, which they do now.

Unknown ütles ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI7T938cdN0

if you can uderstand russian, thats whats being shown in the world today.

what sells more to non-political people wathing tv in the world what do you think?

Kristopher ütles ...

:D

If "Tundmatu vene pätt" appears in the NYT with the photo it was originally published with, all that will happen is that people will say "Hmm, interesting caption", and the photgrapher (Liis Treimann) will be nominated for a Pulitzer.

Kristopher ütles ...

I don't speak Russian, and no one I know does either, very well. What is the content of the link?

Unknown ütles ...

police violence, beaten up kids, people lying down in their own blod and beaten up in terminal, estonian nationalists fighting with russian and bla bla bla.

almost all of that bullshit was repeated in english news i saw today with the same video.

space_maze ütles ...

The question is what would have caused more problems .. still having the statue, given the current situation, on 9 May at its old location .. or not.

Prior to all this, I would have said the first thing. Alas ..

I just do hope that the statue will be revealed, at its new location, BEFORE 9 May. If it isn't, Ansip's head will have to roll. There's no way around that.

Kristopher ütles ...

Why would anyone lie down in their own blood as you say? That seems like going overboard to prove a point, even if the blood was theirs.

Kristopher ütles ...

Sorry, I now understood what you were saying. But if you're stringing for the English, Sergei, I wouldn't use youtube or wiki as a source.

Unknown ütles ...

people who've been there report that police beat people up with their feet and batons after that they didnt event bother to check if the person was breathing until after couple of hours. 4 persons were take straight to hospital unconscious on a stretcher from the terminal.

Unknown ütles ...

im only using youtube as a source because the same video i saw today on english news with almost the same commentary.

Kristopher ütles ...

Any kind of triage is a hard thing to perform.

Policemen prioritize their own injuries. They have to. Rocks and glass are more potentially deadly than controlled thumps from a nightstick. It's easy to say "Hey, he's being too rough". But that's the way it is. There were also many women police officers involved and injured, so that adds a subjective factor.

Unknown ütles ...

im not taking either side im just saying what ive beent told to explain about people in their own blood.

anyway, to ease it up a bit :)
check the the end of the video i posted, i find it quite funny how a small kid gets 6 policemen and special force units done :))

Kristopher ütles ...

im only using youtube as a source because the same video i saw today on english news with almost the same commentary.

...er ... and I forgot to add that the only thing worse than using youtube might be using youtube AND yourself as a source. ;)

Giustino ütles ...

Anyone that complains about "police brutality" is joking. Every mass protest I've ever attended that involved riot police turned out the same way -- people handcuffed for hours, people unfairly arrested, tear gas -- that's what happens.

When the riot police say "move" -- you move. If you don't, don't cry when you get hit by a baton.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Exactly! And remember that on the 1st day, almost all people whose property was damaged complained that the police didn't do anything and just watched the looting.

They used as much force as they had to. No more.

On the 2nd and 3rd days, the police used more force, but absolutely nothing excessive, in my opinion.

space_maze ütles ...

There is way Estonian security forces could have won here. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Especially considering how there is just NO way Estonian police forces could have been prepared for this.

Anonüümne ütles ...

There is way Estonian security forces could have won here.


But they did win! No matter what spin the Russian Federation tries, the average punk on the street of Tallinn now has respect for the police, but doesn't hate it, I think.

Unknown ütles ...

http://breaks.nuera.ee/1.jpg
http://breaks.nuera.ee/2.jpg
http://breaks.nuera.ee/3.jpg
http://breaks.nuera.ee/4.jpg
http://breaks.nuera.ee/5.jpg
http://breaks.nuera.ee/6.jpg
http://breaks.nuera.ee/7.jpg

have fun :)

Anonüümne ütles ...

Good stuff. :-)

Unknown ütles ...

what do you think about this:
http://www.epl.ee/arvamus/383936

i see some reasonable points in there. i agree that the government could have controlled the crowd on Parnu maantee if it wanted to, especialy knowing that only the minority was up for riots..

eh, so many questions we will never get answers to from either side.

Sergei

Anonüümne ütles ...

Sergei,

I've always had a lot of respect for Juhan Kivirähk.

However, I think on this occasion he just doesn't get it!

Which, unfortunately, will cost him his career.

Unknown ütles ...

However, I think on this occasion he just doesn't get it!

we'll probably never know now if hes got it or not.

i just see some reasonable pros and cons in his oppinion, though i know nothing about who the guy is.

Anonüümne ütles ...

we'll probably never know now if hes got it or not.

i just see some reasonable pros and cons in his oppinion, though i know nothing about who the guy is.



He's a well-known and previously well-respected sociologist.

I'm not saying everything he writes is wrong - it's just that he looks at things from the wrong angle and consequently ends up writing absolute drivel.

And yes, it is already clear.

Anonüümne ütles ...

It's presumable that the riots could have been avoided if the police had stopped the crowd earlier before it started to loot. The questions that we have no answer to is whether police really wanted to stop them or not. I personally think think that the police didn't expect this to happen.

Heartsick ütles ...

The ironic thing about the graves is, that there is no real understanding of who is buried there. For years the story has been that the graves are the final resting place of drunken Russian looters, shot by the Russian army in the Tallinn Viinavabrik.

Jeremiasz Koniecpolski ütles ...

This polemic has clearly reached gargantuan proportions, so I will not weigh in on the minutiæ at hand. But I would, as an American of Finnish decent, and more specifically Karelian decent, I support every move Estonia makes to disengage itself from the Russian sphere of influence. Russians invaded my ancestral homeland, and what used to be a pristine woodland has now, under Russian governance, been turned into an industrial wasteland. Bravo, Russia.

As a Westerner and someone who values civilized behavior, I cannot but loathe the arrogance of Russia. Remember, Russia, you lost! Why? Because all you exported was Gulag and authoritarianism. Your civilization, if that name even applies to the barbarism so rampant over there, was hardly a success.

I am no supporter of American imperialism, but at least we helped Europe after WWII, while you turned it into a toilet.

Stalinist architecture is about the only good thing that came out of it. Russian painters are the best painters in the world right now, the Russian novel is unsurpassed as a literary art form, and Andrei Tarkovsky is a genius. But that's all you have to offer. The rest, my dear Russian swoloczy, is sheer and utter barbarism. You should clear out of Estonia and Latvia immediately and offer a formal apology to the Baltics for the crimes you've committed there.

Unknown ütles ...

are you sure you are not polish? :))
and you seem to not know there in America or wherever you are that there's no Russia in Estonia. So your call for Russia to get out of here is utter nonsense. And most of Estonian russians were born in Estonia and own blue passports and have nothing to do with gulags, barbarism and other bollocks you mentioned.
and more than that most russians here dont give a damn shit about modern Russia, as Estonia is their HOME, but they are still treated as "aliens" and occupators on some occasions. thats what raises tensions and makes things like that happen.

Unknown ütles ...

The rest, my dear Russian swoloczy, is sheer and utter barbarism. You should clear out of Estonia and Latvia immediately and offer a formal apology to the Baltics for the crimes you've committed there.
thats sooo retarded. your stupidity makes me laugh :)
We, russians, living here now, havent committed any crimes here, and have been working hard for our families and estonian economy. We have nothing to do with Stalin and the rest, so get over it, moron.
except for those maradeurs, who are criminals and dont have nationality, as there were both russians and estonians.

Anonüümne ütles ...

are you sure you are not polish? :))
and you seem to not know there in America or wherever you are that there's no Russia in Estonia. So your call for Russia to get out of here is utter nonsense. And most of Estonian russians were born in Estonia and own blue passports and have nothing to do with gulags, barbarism and other bollocks you mentioned.
and more than that most russians here dont give a damn shit about modern Russia, as Estonia is their HOME, but they are still treated as "aliens" and occupators on some occasions. thats what raises tensions and makes things like that happen.



Sergei,

I think Jeremiasz is quite right in that Russia was here. But we don't blame you. It is a mistake to blame the people for the barbarity of a regime. Except the people who are at the root of the regime.

Anonüümne ütles ...

And noone has treated you badly in Estonia. It just seemed to you that this was so.

Anonüümne ütles ...

And Jeremiasz is not a moron, he is absolutely right.

Unknown ütles ...

the person calling me "my dear Russian swoloczy" and calling for innocent people to get out of the place they were born in, is a moron to me

Unknown ütles ...

And noone has treated you badly in Estonia. It just seemed to you that this was so

it can turn into a neverending argument.

but old pleople sacked for not passing the kesktase test, whereas they had been working sometimes in almost all-russian environment and had never ever had problems with doing their job. it one of examples. dont you think its too late for some of them to learn estonian?

and if you mentioned i said "on some occasions". i dont say we are treated badly all the time.
but you know some minor cases here and there irritate people and make them feel like that in the end.

Giustino ütles ...

Seregap,

After this situation calms down, we are going to have some loooong discussions about integration here.

I agree that it's unfair for old people to have to take a language test to vote.

But think about this. If Estonia had given everyone citizenship in 1992, and Russia came in with its media machine and said "vote for our stooge" the stooge probably would have won and Estonia would not be where it is today.

I mean there are kids calling the Estonian authorities "fascists" -- where do they learn this anachronistic term?

Ansip may be an opinionated prick, for lack of a better word, but he still won the most votes and every thing he did was legal. Therefore he isn't a fascist.

And nobody will ever take these clowns -- like Klenski, like Zarenkov -- seriously if they continue to use this 1950s Stalinist speech.

And the thing is that there is no power base on the Russian-speaking side. There are business leaders and some journalists too, but they never say anything. They might just grumble and wonder why the state hasn't done everything perfect yet.

Other minorities in other situations have had to organize and lobby hard for greater opportunity. But as far as I can see, the most organized anyone gets is slowing down traffic and honking their horns.

What gives?

Unknown ütles ...

With their distorted view of history, the Estonians are constant problem mongers for the rest of the EU.They are not alone in this, this behaviour is gaining ground in E. Europe.
The classical view is that they escaped from a collapsing Soviet bloc after 50+ years of slavery, & became good Europeans.
The reality is,they don't respect the EU laws,don't respect cultural diversity & are stupid enough to believe we welcome linguistic & want cultural monopolies like the cosy clique in power in Tallinn.
In fact the truth is;- Roosevelt and Churchill ABANDONED you in 1945 and this was a political choice.
As many Balts became ruthless killers 1941-3 then revisionist forever afterwards, it's not a nice spectacle to see them attempting in their silly ways to antagonise the useful but totally devalued minorities speaking russian in their countries.
The result will be much GREATER tension,-they have done all they possibly can to increase it. Then severe loss of business with the new Russia.

Unknown ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Jeremiasz Koniecpolski ütles ...

Seregap,
I parry your flabby semantic thrust by pointing out that OBVIOUSLY Russia itself was not in Estonia; geo-politcal boundaries are not beings that do things. The Russian nation, however, has meddled much and egregiously in Estonia, and in that sense of the English usage, Seregap, my lexical choice was not fallacious.
I see that you are flustered by my bombast - apoplectic posts such as yours are always hilarious in their frustration. And if you really want to try to impugn anyone's character by merely throwing invective their way, I might stoop equally as low and point out your juvenile use of the emoticon.
And no, I am not Polish, but I support all Poles who tried to resist Soviet occupation and subsequent destruction of their country.
I am sure there are plenty of good Russians in Estonia, but your indignant response of course belies the typical Russian reaction to anyone pointing out any flaw in Russian culture at all: incredulity. It is precisely this that disgusts Westerners about this unnecessary, uncalled-for attitude emanating from Russians. It seems as though your loss of empire has left you completely marginalized and pouting on the sidelines, in a huff because no one is listening. For chrissakes, Russia was only let into the G7 as a placatory move. Its economy is totally pathetic, and the only reason anyone gives a crap about it, is because of its nukes and its energy stranglehold on Europe. Note, both of these are essentially destructive contributions to the world.
Russia is meaningless, and if you are so pro-Estonia, then clearly you see the Russian community's interest in integration, for there's a better future in Estonia than anywhere else in that failing, rotten hulk of an Empire to your east.

Jeremiasz

Unknown ütles ...

"I am sure there are plenty of good Russians in Estonia, but your indignant response of course belies the typical Russian reaction to anyone pointing out any flaw in Russian culture at all: incredulity. It is precisely this that disgusts Westerners about this unnecessary, uncalled-for attitude emanating from Russians."

what a load of bullshit.
uncalled-for attitude???
insulting people you have never met and calling them "swoloch" is what disgusts me about you, so-called westerner.
you are the only person in this discussion that called for such attitude.
none of Estonians here have called for russians to get out of Estonia and none of them ever insulted all russians for what a small minority have done. while you "american" can only bark from over the sea knowing nothing about russians in estonia.
I see that you are flustered by my bombast - apoplectic posts such as yours are always hilarious in their frustration.
dont you think you are hilarious in your judgement of a culture you've never been a part of or never lived mext to? arent you hilarious in judging the whole multimillion nation by the way its officials or former rulers behaved?
what a typical ignorance for american, brainwashed by their own imperial regime.

Unknown ütles ...

Your civilization, if that name even applies to the barbarism so rampant over there, was hardly a success. .....

It seems as though your loss of empire has left you completely marginalized and pouting on the sidelines, in a huff because no one is listening.

after firing such bollocks, which are insulting to any person whether its russian or whoever you say my attitude towards you was uncalled-for??

Its economy is totally pathetic, and the only reason anyone gives a crap about it, is because of its nukes and its energy stranglehold on Europe. Note, both of these are essentially destructive contributions to the world.

what a bunch of nonsense. learn your stuff first, which i know is hard with your level of education over there. but make an effort.

would you even know where's Estonia if it werent your ancestors in finland? i doubt that.

i would rather talk to adequate and intelligent estonians here. i regret already that i replied to such retarded and provocative comment of yours.

Unknown ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Unknown ütles ...

and if a civilization that bred some of the brightest minds and scientists in history, with finest literature and art was hardly a cuccess...
i feel sorry for your useless civilization then that gave nearly nothing to the world.

Jeremiasz Koniecpolski ütles ...

Giustino,

Sorry for injecting such contrarian nonsense into your blog.

Keep up the good work!

Jeremiasz

Anonüümne ütles ...

I'm glad if the Russian embassy will get the hell out of here.

Itay Paz & Udi Netzer ütles ...

Russia has bad sides and good sides like any other state we know.

Itay
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Anonüümne ütles ...

crime scene cleanup
auto refinance
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crime mob
coach purse
primeval story true
cadillac deville
ameriquest mortgage
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