kolmapäev, juuni 04, 2008

dorpat

Walking around the streets of Tartu, you are bound to hear many languages. Language number one is, of course, Estonian. This is the native language of more than 80 percent of this city.

Language number two is Russian. There are other languages, too. You'll hear Finnish outside pubs, Italian in La Dolce Vita, and Polish outside the university's main building. Swedish is a hard one to recognize, because it sounds a lot like Estonian, only with different words. English, of course, is omnipresent.

And then there is German. Some Germans are local, others are students, a third group are tourists. I'm told that there are even some Baltic Germans in Tartu of ancient, sword-wielding stock. When I see Germans or meet them I an intrigued, but never tell them what I think, because the German soul is a mystery.

What I am wondering, though, is how exactly does it feel to be a German in a place that was formerly known as "Dorpat"? What kind of cultural deja vu do they experience when they realize that most of the architecture in the town center reminds one of the buildings back home? How does it feel to be introduced to a group of Estonians with names like Hans, Karl, and Katrin?

One German I know who has never visited was positively shocked when she learned that the Estonians were (unobservant) Evangelical Lutheran, punctual types who use European (German) words like reklaam and reisibüroo in their language. An instant kinship was born.

But what of the one's who have visited? Is there any connection, or have all warm feelings for the Teutonic past been locked away in the attic of the German national collective unconscious? How do Germans feel about Estland?

63 kommentaari:

cjc ütles ...

Was ist das denn für ein Quatsch?? (See on jama)

Giustino ütles ...

1, 2 politzei? 3, 4 grenadier?

Lassie ütles ...

Very often some young Men says: "Heil Hitler..."

Jens-Olaf ütles ...

There are many Erasmus students from Germany each semester term in Tartu.
And many post in blogs for that period. I got the feeling that the old connections from the pre war period are cut. The German names of places in Estonia are less in use each year.

Giustino ütles ...

This is actually politically relevant. Germany played a significant role in the birth of, and post-WWI policies of, all of the Baltic rim countries. I believe that Germany recognized Lithuania already in 1918.

But, today, you get the sense that FM Steinmeier just sees them as troublesome "post-Soviet states", which seems to block out a lot of history.

Then again, if the British can forget about their roles in the creation of Israel and Iraq -- and blame everything on the US -- then I guess Germany can forget about its role in the independence of Finland, Estland, Lettland, Litauen, and Poland, too.

AndresS ütles ...

I surprised to read that you think Swedish and Estonian are similar. Perhaps it's the fact that I've lived with a Swede for years but I've always felt there's a strong difference. And judging by the number of Swedish soldiers I saw in Tartu this week it shouldn't be to hard to pick out at the moment.

Giustino ütles ...

I surprised to read that you think Swedish and Estonian are similar. Perhaps it's the fact that I've lived with a Swede for years but I've always felt there's a strong difference.

I am talking about people passing by, like on bicycles or on the pedestrian walk. Russian and German are very easy to identify, but Swedish is softer with more swallowed words and vowels.

One time I played Swedish folk music in the house. Epp asked if they were speaking Setu ;-)

Vahur ütles ...

What do you mean by German role in Baltic independence?
That their Landeswehr campaign gave Estonians a chance to kick some German ass, thus make even with an arch-enemy and move our Victory day to summer instead of cold January?
That for short few years Germans could fulfill their medieval dream of getting Lithuania firmly under control as a puppet state (and for short period the same applied for Latvia)?
Lets not forget that Baltic independence was as much (or even more) anti-German as it was anti-Russian. This resulted in lots of hard feelings (think about Estonian land reform of 20ies) and those are not dead yet.
Example. I had a chance to meet late Nils Taube in 1994 when he was not yet major foreign investor and do-gooder here. Half an hour conversation was so bitter and full of hidden insults that my British friend who arranged the meeting felt obliged to apologize to me later.
Thats not to say that some or even many Baltic Germans have positive attitude to Baltics nowadays. But with the older generation mostly gone even this nostalgy is disappearing and Steinmeiers attitude reflects that perfectly.

Kristopher ütles ...

I think there must be something in the water in Estonia, some kind of forgiveness compound. Scientists should isolate it and it should be marketed.

On the face of it, you have all these grounds for potential historical and interethnic grievances, not least of which I would think is the land reform of 1919 that deprived the Baltic Germans of their estates, and yet there don't seem to be very hard feelings, at least I don't hear of them. Or maybe it's not the water, but things like cultural autonomy.

Re Swedish, the sing-song delivery of Swedish is very different from Estonian. Plus most words in Swedish start with or contain the letter "ö". If you search for "Norwegian bachelor farmers" on the Internet, you can hopefully find an audio file of the language in its purest form.

plasma-jack ütles ...

[i]deprived the Baltic Germans of their estates/i]

dude. from ancestors of former serfs, that argument won't get any sympathy. how did they end up owning the land, huh?

plasma-jack ütles ...

that's like telling American natives that they were too brutal towards poor white farmers (:

Jens-Olaf ütles ...

From the years of 1988-1991 I rember that very, very seldom Estonia was disussed as a country that has a place in Europe, a history, a distinctive language. Mostly discussions about Estonia ended like this: Can it be good to draw new borders lines? At a time we are unifying (EU). Nationalism is a bad concept, etc..
No emotion for this little country at that time by the majority of Germans. The same disussion you could have just by changing names. Latvia for Estonia, Slovenia for Lithuania. It were just names.

Andres ütles ...

Well, that's normal. The Germans are a "great nation" like the Americans and Russians. All "great nations" have some amount of ignorance and feeling of supremacy.

I remember how our school used to have friendship schools in Norway, Finland and Germany. One year the teachers came to the idea to have one big European get together, one teacher even wrote a project to the EU to get money or something. So three schools from three countries came together and had common events etc. And of course, since it would be naive to presume the Finns and Norwegians know German, all of the events were carried along in English. Boy did that get angry looks from the Germans. They even made remarks like "maybe you don't want to carry on this friendship thing at all if it's all in English" etc. Local teachers laughed it off as a "complex of a great nation". When I think back on it though, did the Germans want to be pals because of real Pan-European friendship or because our school had many students with good command of German who made them feel important and a "great nation". *shrug*

Kristopher ütles ...

My comment shouldn't have sounded like I was lamenting anything. "Deprived" as an adjective might be a loaded word, but not so the verb.

cjc ütles ...

Hallo Mr. Giustino, we are now living in 2008 and not in 1918, You are remembering?
Come on and vistit Germany today an neglect Your stupid germanophob attitude.

Giustino ütles ...

What do you mean by German role in Baltic independence?

So, basically, prior to 1917 the only country that was on a path to international legitimacy was Poland.

But with the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, Trotsky gave away the farm (Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine) in return for being viewed as the legitimate leadership of Russia.

Everyone wanted to deal with Mr. Trotsky because his government was so weak and he was so intent on biding time until the communist revolution happened in Germany (which never occurred).

So, he gave it all away, and, at that moment, all these countries, which were previously divided up into guberniyas and duchies, became internationally viable entities.

They were supposed to be pro-German puppet states with German nobility as rulers. But then there was a revolution in Germany as well (the kaiser abdicated) and the resulting vacuum of power enabled the emergence of genuinely sovereign states in the Baltic rim.

So, to conclude, German's plan backfired, but it set the stage for countries like Estonia to become independent. Because, prior to 1917, there was no Estonia -- it was bisected by two provinces. I believe Latvia was three provinces and a guberniya.

Lithuania was a total mess. They had a hard time drawing up their borders. Remember, Lithuania hadn't existed since the 18th century. People were everywhere, Poles here, Lithuanians there, Germans over there, Jews over here.

Brest-Litovsk gave these countries a bit of a road map. They were now places with capitals and borders. It was easier for them to define themselves.

Giustino ütles ...

Here you go, CJC.

Vahur ütles ...

Nope. Brest-Litovsk had nothing to do with roadmap. Independence of these countries was a result of a mess that was Russian revolution (and yes, German military success contributed to that).
As far as legitimacy goes you are correct but only almost. Lets not forget that all of these territories were relatively late "acquisitons" of Russians. Finland and Poland both had strong autonomy and had been part of Russia only a little more than 100 years. Estonia and Latvia had belonged to Russia for longer but still had strong autonomy. Self-definiton problems certainly were, but those were internal. Definining themselves as "not part of Russia" was mostly a non-issue.
Given a chance they all would have gone, Brest-Litovsk or not.

Giustino ütles ...

As far as legitimacy goes you are correct but only almost.

Didn't Putin refer to this treaty in 2005? He said that in 1918 Russia gave territory to Germany, and that, in 1939, it took it back?

Maybe he was just being a jerk?

Vahur ütles ...

Finland definitely does not fit the picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%27s_declaration_of_independence

As for Putins remark, those countries were supposed to become de jure independent, de facto Austro-German satellites. So it's a matter of interpretation.

Giustino ütles ...

So, here's where I see the division in terms of policy. On one hand, Germany has been supportive of the Baltics entry into the EU and NATO. this shows me that they see themselves as a regional player, making the Baltics part of their region, their 'near abroad.'

At the same time, German diplomats at times treat the Baltics like total strangers. They confuse Latvia and Lithuania, and assume them to all be the EU's post-Soviet step-children.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous, considering their history in the region? Do you feel this dichotomy is the case? Germany is a complex country.

plasma-jack ütles ...

(kristopher, I was just being cocky, didn't mean that you were actually lamenting and I don't wear any grudge towards Germans)

Juhan ütles ...

But what of the one's who have visited? Is there any connection, or have all ...?

I've had it the other way round. Couple of years ago I was visiting Potsdam and I seemed to me as Tartu, Viljandi, Pärnu and Elva stacked together. A lot fancier, of course, but something was there. I was especially moved by the low redbrick houses which made me feel I was indeed in Viljandi (or should I say Fellin?).

Doris ütles ...

Well, I am Estonian, living with a Dutch guy who has lots of German friends. When one of those friends comes to visit, he always always wants to talk about WWII and EU, seeing as there are three different poins of view. What surprised me a lot was how amazed he was when I told him of the rich German legacy in Estonia. he had no idea that the Baltics had been a colony of Germany for a few centuries, nor did he know of any Baltic Germans. And he is from Cologne, which is the center of the region where te first crusaders came from... He didn't even know that they (Germans) had kept Estonians as serfs until the Russians forbade it! (ok, so that's oversimplification but so funny)

plasma-jack ütles ...

actually, Kaiser had no influence over Baltics, not to mention that there was no Germany in Middle Ages

Jonas ütles ...

What would be interesting to know is how the history of e.g. the Baltic Germans are taught in today's Germany. Being the person responsible for the history curriculum in German schools must not be an easy job.

I have still heard the occasional elderly person refer to Tallinn as Reval in Swedish. Although not recently, and I am talking about the old old, the sort who aren't likely to have been across with their beer trolley since the end of Soviet rule.

I'm surprised that Swedish and Estonian sound alike to your ear, I don't see it myself. But it's always interesting to hear how others think languages sound. From the Finnish language side of my brain, the Estonian language always brings a smile to my face. It's familiar sounding to the degree that I think I should be understanding what people are saying. And yet I don't, well the theme of the conversation perhaps, but not much more. And then the way it sounds makes me wonder if it's Norwegians trying to speak Finnish and not succeeding. It sounds pleasant though.

Incidentally, how is your attempt to learn Swedish coming on? Did you buy any books yet?

Hansken ütles ...

BTW: Frakfurt Allgemeine Zeitung uses still Reval when referring to Tallinn. So, on some level they are still remembering and recognising their colonial past (although, it has to be noted that this colonialism was not imperial but more like cultural, etc.)

My partner is German. And she didn't have a clue about the 'German injection' to Estonian culture and history. It's not taught or discussed at all over there. So she has been rather surprised about all this. But I'll take her to Estonia this Summer for the first time - for an extensive trip through the country. So we'll see about this effect, Giustino is interested in. But in this context it has to be noted also that we shouldn't forget Germany's internal differences in this regard - yes, I too recognise Tartu when I'm in Berlin or Preussia or Saxony, etc. There is something similar in the milieu. But Bavaria or Baden-Württenberg are something quite different.

Doris ütles ...

I aways feel homesick hearing Finnish tourists here (happens much more often than estonians, although last week I did hear a bunch of Estonians - who sounded somewhat inebriated - passing my window VERY late at night). People here say that Estonian sounds like Italian, and that when I speak Dutch, then I have "the Princess Maxima accent" (she's Argentinean)

Thomas ütles ...

Doris is right...most of us don't know that germans have ruled the baltics...for most of us it is irrelevant, its just history as
the former colonies in africa or the german silesia or
the sudeten german part of czech republic...I mean how is a german supposed to feel about baltics??? Shall I feel sorry or enjoy the "great historical achievements"...thats all history, we got over it...nice architecture here, yeah looks like Lübeck or Potsdam, so what?

Giustino ütles ...

I'm surprised that Swedish and Estonian sound alike to your ear, I don't see it myself.

It's all relative. German, with its 'ich' is easy to identify. But if two blond women went jogging by in Tartu and they were speaking Swedish, it might take you that extra second to realize that that's what it was.

By the way, there is an Estonian 'lilt', but not everyone has it. Anu Välba has a bit of it, but Jaan Tätte doesn't.

Giustino ütles ...

Shall I feel sorry or enjoy the "great historical achievements"...thats all history, we got over it...nice architecture here, yeah looks like Lübeck or Potsdam, so what?

I don't know. The streets all seem to have German names: Kreutzwald, Kotzebue, Struve, Von Baer, Faehlmann. Not exactly foreign to the German ear. Maybe you should feel a bit at home.

Hansken ütles ...

most of us don't know that germans have ruled the baltics...for most of us it is irrelevant, its just history as
the former colonies in africa or the german silesia or
the sudeten german part of czech republic. ... ...thats all history, we got over it...


I live in UK. People here in fact feel quite responsible for their former colonies - all these African and South Asian countries. I'm starting to find this 'getting over the history' of Germans quite funny. Ignorance is a bliss only for those who manage not to remember... It's not that I actually care if Germans want to reckognise their legacy in Estonia (In fact, reading the name Reval in FAZ made me quite angry for few seconds). But then again, when German government continues to flirt with increasingly dodgy Russia then that again is scary - almost like we didn't have these history lessons. Anyway, as always, things are complex in this regard: http://blog.icds.ee/article/93/estonia-germany-and-relations-with-russia

plasma-jack ütles ...

Why be angry at the R-word? It's an Estonian name, after all. Finnish call our land Viro and French named Germans after Alemanns, while we call them Saxons, although they prefer to be Teutons, in fact.

Giustino ütles ...

But then again, when German government continues to flirt with increasingly dodgy Russia then that again is scary - almost like we didn't have these history lessons. Anyway, as always, things are complex in this regard:

What I love about the Nord Stream deal is how the Germans and Russians are squeezing those pesky ex-Soviet countries, when it's Sweden that is, of all countries, holding up the deal. But no finger pointing at Sweden. They'll blame it on those inconvenient Poles instead.

Heli ütles ...

I have to agree, that majority of germans just have no idea that they once ruled here and when to ask about "Estland", then they have hard time figuring out where is it exactly and northern Europe is last place they would say. It remindes me of my penpal in West-Germany in the late 80´s who asked from me such questions like "do you have TV-set at home and where do you live, in house or hut" so felt like she thought she was writing with someone from Africa or something :D.

Puu ütles ...

Well they are having the next Esto in Munich... which seems to me to be just some Eesti eestlaste plot to throughly associate the long standing vaalis eestlaste community with fascism, but there is this heritage....
All the civilizing words in Estonian come from German... Schloss... Loss...tass... stuba... tuba... It's like etymologically obvious that before the Hansa Period there were no castles or cups or rooms... just huts I guess.... The greatest Swedish contribution to the language would seem to be Kalkun.... before the Swedish period there were no turkeys...which is indeed harsh.

Sven ütles ...

I guess there was no sea (meri) before the Germans either, as it's from an Indo-European root.

Mads Michael ütles ...

In Scandinavia knowledge about Danish and Swedish history in the Baltics isn't much better I think. Maybe most Danes have heard that the Danish flag fell down from the sky in Estonia, but that doesn't mean that they would be able to say exactly where Estonia is.
It can seem strange that so many Germans are completely unaware of the centeries of German cultural influence in Estonia and Latvia. But maybe due to some over-eager "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" (coming to terms with the past) they regard the history of Germans in Eastern Europe as something to be forgotten. After all didn't Hitler say that Germany is where Germans live ? The Germans in Poland and elsewhere (not the Baltics though, except Memel/Klaipeda) were used by the nazis as a pretext for starting WW2.

Jonas ütles ...

In Scandinavia knowledge about Danish and Swedish history in the Baltics isn't much better I think.

I agree.

There are serious deficiencies in the teaching of history in Finland and Sweden at least. In Finland, everything before 1809 (i.e. the time under Swedish rule) is no longer part of the compulsory history curriculum.

I have no idea what the Swedes teach in Sweden - but it's surprising just how many of them have never heard of the fact that there is a native Swedish-speaking population in Finland. (I suppose even fewer must have heard of the Swedish-speaking Estonians). The ignorance is all the more surprising when you consider that Swedish isn't exactly a language spoken all around the planet in a multitude of lands like English, French, Spanish etc. You would think the Swedes would know about the very few other places that share the same language as them. But there you go.

Puu ütles ...

Mer might have come from pre-German trading with any one from the Latins to the Turks predecessors. Traders going up to Eesti for amber was indicated as far back as tactitus. Vesi is old old though.. and ja:rv...

Puu ütles ...

Po:ld on the other hand... Germanic... just like the Po:lder couch I will buy for my home when I am rich and rich ( not famous).

Frank ütles ...

"What would be interesting to know is how the history of e.g. the Baltic Germans are taught in today's Germany."

No part of the curriculum ... complete ignorance - of Baltic stock myself I am sorry to say so.

Let me give some more facts:

1. Lennart Meri always encouraged the Baltic German community to use the German names for places, towns, regions etc. - he argued they were part of the Estonian as well as of the common heritage.

2. When the land reform took place already 50 per cent of the land used for agricultural purposes belonged to Estonians.

3. The vast majority of the Baltic German community does not look at Estonia and Livonia as places where they should be "re-possessed" but as the places where the identity and the character of their ancestors was coined, traces of that coining process may even be found among the youngest ... Baltic Germans or Balten were proud to be peculiar, to be different from the riigi-saksad.
Speaking for the Estländer- or eestimaalased-fraktsioon of Baltic Germans, I might add that there are many character features shared by Estonians and Eestimaalased alike. To spot attributes of that kinship for me is part of the fun of being a habitual reader of this web-log.

Hirnu-Hrnx! ütles ...

Is there any documentary evidence that I could print out form somwhere that would show that Estonians indeed were serfs and were treated and traded like property by Germans.

I'd need this in my heated demates with blacks who boo-hoo about their 150 years of slavery versus our 800.

I'd like to shut them up for good. I've heard that there are documents in existence that say something like: For sale: 10 cows, 20 bags of oats, young male farm hand, aged 17, strong, blue eyes, blond ... smth. like that. I need a copy of somthing like that. Would that be impossible? Anybody seen anything like that? Does it exist? There must be something like that somewhere. Germans were very anal about everything. Would be really nice to find it and throw into the stupid faces of these folks here who ride high and mighty on history's insults and shit.

Hirnu-Hrnx! ütles ...

I aplogize for typoes. I use 3 fingers to type and I must look at the keyboard. It is a challenge aggravated by a particular blend of Tourrett's and dyslexia. But you already knew that. So, anyone?

Puu ütles ...

If there were documentary evidence to shut you up for good I would gladly produce it.

Puu ütles ...

Just kidding.

Jim Hass ütles ...

Don't think thay the Baltic German experience stops at the Western Border of Littauen. My ancesters left Schleswig for "Amerika" after the '48 revolution. They kept their german language and many of their customs until Pan-Germanic Nationalism collapsed because of the Kaiser's and NSAP's aggressive wars.

Great grandpa went to Wallace German College near Cleaveland,Ohio and home schooled his children to conjugate all those strong verbs, the ones that give us fits.

Now we are all integrated and assimilated, intermarried and dispersed, although I have a daughter in Tuebingen, dating a German national,

My guess is that the same effect of love will prevail in most open societies, where there are no forces to fight it.

Hirnu-Hrnx! ütles ...

yeah puu. Do you feel what I feel?

Opposites attract. All my life I've been tied to bitchy women in one way or the other. I swear. I love when it hurts so good. You and I were made for each other. Only half kidding.

Mads Michael ütles ...

Here's a German left wing newspaper article on German Tourism to Estonia. http://linkszeitung.de/content/view/133514/114/

The author is aware of the German heritage in Estonia, but what really surprised me is that a German left-winger finds the term "eastern colonisation" for the German settlement in the Baltics politically incorrect. He even claims that Estonians try to conceal the German cultural heritage and that German tourists in Estonia are uneasy with "Estonian nationalism" (sic!) To further boost his argument he quotes the Latvian (sic!) Pre-war President Ulmanis' words that it is good that the Germans left forever in 1939. (Actually relations between Baltic Germans and Estonians were better than between Baltic Germans and Latvians according to Baltic-German historians.)

Puu ütles ...

Slavery in the US was much more brutal than serfdom. Estonians were bought and sold but they did have certain rights to their land they has some access to social mobility.Family units generally stayed together.They also didn't lose their langauge and culture for the most part. They weren't shipped across the atlantic packed like sardines amoung their own feces.And for the most part they weren't multilated a King Leopold.

Puu ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Puu ütles ...

Seriouly HH...BTW I really don't like you... next you' re are going to start saying Estonians had it worse than the Jews in WWII

Frank ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Frank ütles ...

Mads, thanks for Linkszeitung-article , just proving the point that the average German is ignorant with concern to the history of those parts of Europe hidden for some decades behind the iron curtain.

History lessons in (West) German schools used to be self-centred or egotistical and obsessed with the rise of Nazism, if not so, they were definitely leaning westwards.

Should anyone be interested in the "official" point of view of the former "Baltic barons" associations, namely the Eestimaalaseds´, here are the
links:

www.baltische-ritterschaften.de

opting for the "English Version" you get a general (mission-) statement, clicking the coat of arms of Estonia you get the extended version of the Eestimaalased

Frank ütles ...

Key-points probably included within the following sentences:

!A further important aspect of our mission, which needs to respond to the changes of our own time, lies in the return to the free world of our country of origin where the overwhelming part of our 750-year history took place. Since the Republic of Estonia regained its independence in 1991, the Estländische Ritterschaft (Eestimaa Rüütelkond) cannot be conceived without lively interaction with present day Estonia. This manifests itself through its own activities and those of individual members, as well as families. These include travels to and reunions in the former homeland, the care of family graves and humanitarian help.

In Estonia, this has been noticed widely, and also led to our being approached and encouraged. The speech of Estonian President Lennart Meri made in Berlin on 3 October 2002, the fifth anniversary of German re-unification, in which he asserted the right of Germans from Estonia to a homeland, was noted well beyond Baltic German circles. The commemoration of the 750th anniversary of the Estländische Ritterschaft at Reval/Tallinn on 7 September 2002 was a key moment in asserting a common history and linked cultural heritage between the Estländische Ritterschaft and Estonians. On that occasion, Estonia's Head of State, Arnold Rüütel, spoke of the role of the Estländische Ritterschaft from the Estonian perspective and described it as having rooted Estonia in Western European civilisation and having played the role of godparent in this process."

Giustino ütles ...

Very interesting, thanks.

Jens-Olaf ütles ...

Just a note added to frank's comment. Not all "Germans" in Estonia were nobel, the Ritterschaften are one aspect of it, though quite important for a long time.

Frank ütles ...

Giustino, the gratitude is on my side - this weblog of yours and your concern for all causes Estonian would surely be missed ...

Jens-Olaf, you have a point there!

Puu ütles ...

The problem with Estonians German heritage has been the way that it inadvertently ties the country to the holocaust.I was an ESL teacher in Estonia and I had the misfortune of finding out through the international press that my godmother's cousin's daughter's husband's uncle was possibly the one and only Simon Wiesenthal Center suspected War Criminal of estonian origin, although acquited in many court. Since my godmother's cousin's daughter was my friend on a social networking site... OMFG some of my students found out about it and some of them ( especially this one boy who like dude, I bet didn't have the best family history either) decided that it was fun to call the teacher a fascist. I lost that job in no small part due to the uncomfortableness of six degrees of seperation between myself and an alleged war criminal. Not only that but my friend from college who is jewish and married to a german guy's brother threatened to kill me at his sisters wedding. Which made me very sad and made me come home faster than I wanted.And then I get back to New York, and some people I used to know didn't want to hand out with me because it's six degrees of seperation between myself and this war criminal and then to compensate and prove I was really not a fascist I did the logical thing and started sleeping with black guys. But then I started seeing one I really liked who is very successful and I was afraid that his business would be hurt because he was fucking a " fascist" ( this does not go into Korean Juice box misogony because I have a valid point) and so I decide to introduce him to my godmother's cousin's daughter who is in the same business as the boy. And I justify it by saying that the friend who is ignoring me is really good friends with this other girl of half estonian extraction whose grandpa was a doctor for the nazi's , german. And the my friend tells me to fuck myself for saying her grandpa worked with the nazis and some other mutual friends won't talk to me . And then one of my old good friends who is jewish got killed by a Shaws truck.

Puu ütles ...

The exchange is pasted backwards. So HH you are not the only one who hates me:

Fuck You
-Lolita Swampwolf

The Holocaust affected all of Europe, and all of Europe was responsible.
Even Sweden which is always touting its neutrality sold steel to German
which was bought with state confiscated money from the million of
innocent
victims who died.

Your Grandparents got to allied territory in the same manner most
Estonians did.
They spent time in the same displace persons camps as everyone else.
And everyone
who made it to allied territory got there by trading favors with the
Germans.
By collaborating on some level with the Germans. Your Grandfather who was
doctor helped patch up members of the German army. The German Army was
the Nazis. Everyone says they were in the resistance, like in france, most
of
the country says t they were in the resisitance but they were all
collaborating
with the Germans,but most people were
just trying to survive. Surviving meant collaboration, my grandfather
picked
potatoes and made posters. After the war everyone tried their best to
distance
themselves from what they did. By passing the buck.

Your dad has been dealing with depression for years and I can guarantee
you this is the reason.
It's not a chemical inbalance its the difficulty dealing with the
inherent evil in all human
beings that is brought out by war.

Puu

It is off-base and heartbreaking that
you would insinuate that my grandfather was or identified with the
Nazis. Please, do not take tragic events that hurt and traumatized my
family, and twist them into some inflammatory, disjointed analogy. Your
milky half-truths are out of context, they are callous and
inappropriate.
During the war, my grandfather and his family - my father, aunt, and
grandmother - were forced from their home in Estonia, at gunpoint.
Their home was ransacked, house and possessions were seized, they were
left literally with the clothes on their backs. His wife and children
were eventually taken from him and sent to refugee camps, his brothers
and sisters sent to die in labor camps in Siberia. He was conscripted
against his will by the German army, and taken under duress to serve as
a doctor on the battlefields, stitching up injured soldiers in the
field. This was not something he elected to do. He had no choice, and
likely would have been killed if he'd resisted. He was separated from
his family, communication was forbidden, and my grandmother, after many
months, assumed he had been killed. They were eventually reunited with
him as the war ended, much later, in a refugee camp in Germany. They
came to
the United States and tried to forget what had happened; my grandfather
continued to practice medicine, piecing together a new life,
concentrating
on his patients, his family, gardening, reading, travel. He practiced
medicine until old age and illness overtook him.
you never knew my Grandfather. I can tell you that he was
one of the sweetest, kindest, gentlest people I've known, and it still
saddens me that I was only able to know him for such a short time. I
have never in my life heard a bad word uttered about him. You can make
insulting or disparaging remarks about me if you like, but please do
not make such comments about my deceased Grandfather, who is no longer
here to defend himself. He lived an honorable life, dedicated to
helping others, and deserves only the greatest respect. When he died,
Jewish friends had a tree planted in Israel in his honor. I find it
horribly disrespectful that you would say such things, particularly
about someone you don't know, particularly about someone who is no
longer with us.
I have resisted replying to these emails, but this one really upset
me. It angers me that you would spread such noxious insinuations about
my family in a public forum, half of whom are people I don't know. If
anyone would like to discuss my Grandfather, to learn what he was like,
about his life, what he loved, who he was, I am happy to talk about
this. But please do not listen to these bizarre, sensationalized
half-truths.
-Lolita Swampwolf
Just to put things into perspective. I introduced Piney Tinsel and Tony Jamal because history doesn't matter today in the choices we make to be kind to each other.
Lolita's Grandfather was a doctor for the German ( read Nazi )
army. And M-dawg, who won't buy a volkwagon because of the
holocaust has pictures of Lolita Swampwolf kissing him on his friendster page.
F-dawg's brother whose mom was the librarian at my highschool, who
flirted with me at graduation threatened to kill me at his sister
wedding for having introduced her to an old friend who I had no idea
who she married.
should lolita Swampwolf and M-dawg Hang out? Of course.
Should F-dawg's brother threaten me with death, no but it shows how
we are all capable of evil.
So who cares about what happened fifty years ago. The only way not
make history repeat itself is through is through kindness to other
people
I love you all. I hope I see more of tony jamal, because i love him, I
hope I get a real job and I hope that I never again have to deal with
so many other people's crap

Puu ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
bureau ütles ...

Puu, you might be so kind as to delete the doublette of your last post, if it is not unkind to ask for it?

I might be mistaken, but the gist of your last posts to me seems to be less an Estonian but a general European issue - as you do point out yourself ...

Occupation is an experience we should try to view from another angle than the Germanic or Hanseatic influence that is part of Estonia´s heritage and was present for about seven centuries, no matter if the nominal sovereign was Danish, German, Swedish or Russian.

The name Swampwolf thrills me - would that have bee Soehunt originally?

Anyhow: keep the fire burning and al the best wishes ...

Jim Hass ütles ...

Thank god that no one has brought upthe Germans Kant, who wrote in Koeningsberg (Kalliningrad) and his students F,W.Hegel and Karl Marx. This unfortunate philosophical heritage provided the cover for both the Nazi and USSR to commit some of the crimes that they were able to do. Clearly this European influence is a two sided thing.