pühapäev, november 07, 2010


What did I expect from Los Angeles? Dragnet, Joe Friday, Frank Gannon, the Virgin Connie Swale, Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie, hot dogs, Ice Cube, Venice Beach, Big Kahuna burgers, guitar solos, Emilio Estevez, gin and juice, rollerblades, the OJ Simpson trial, afros, boob jobs, Michael Jackson's doctor, Melrose Place, Liz Taylor's dead husbands. What I got was a lift to the Los Angeles Estonian House courtesy of an Estonian woman with a Pakistani name.

By that point, I was afraid I had completely forgotten the Estonian language,but it comes back to me with Saima, rushing in, and it occurred to me what a peculiar thing it is to know more than one language. I've been on what accounts to a book tour for most of this year, and I agreed to present at the LA Eesti Maja. It's in a single-story, pueblo-like structure in one of the city's neighborhoods, and neighborhoods are the skeleton key to understanding Los Angeles, but I can't remember in what LA neighborhood the Estonian House is situated. Something something "Hills" or "Park" or "Heights" maybe.

Inside, it was like the New York Estonian House, the dim lighting, the flags, the portraits of Johan Laidoner and Konstantin Päts, Lennart Meri and Toomas Hendrik Ilves "Rüütel didn't send us one," a gentleman says. Then the dolls in national costume, the choirs, the Saku beer, the imported issues of Kroonika with the photos of national "celebrities" and their love lives. The Estonian press is so starved for material you can tell them almost anything and they'll report it. Faux Esto Celebrity: "I don't feel well today. Maybe something I ate. Can we do the interview tomorrow?" Estonian Tabloid: "Faux Esto Celebrity Ill!" Stranger on Los Angeles Street Approaching Faux Esto Celebrity Clutching Imported Estonian Tabloid: "Hey, esse, are you feeling okay? I read you were sick, bro"

Yes. It's a pity I haven't joined forces with the Estonian comedy troupes, even just to heckle them, because by now because all book tours basically become standup comedy routines. The return of Seinfeld. Cue the popping, synthetic basslines. Cue Kramer. Cue Newman. I ramble on about the foundation of the publishing house, the struggle to finish a book -- and it's my first book, ok -- but the audience doesn't want to hear that, they want to hear funny stories about meat jelly. "It's clear and it jiggles and it has something in it. They tell me it's 'meat and it's delicious.' I ask, 'what kind of meat is it?' and then I ask, 'from what part of the animal?'" "That's good," they roar. "Now tell us about blood sausage!" And I tell them.

Estonians are so polite. I am afraid to cuss in front of them for fear that they might blush. And, you know, a lot of them are quite short, sturdy and round: the little people. Maybe the Hobbit comparisons aren't off their mark. I really like when an Estonian is even taller than me, someone like Jaak Aaviksoo, you know, and you talk, and the Estonian leans in like Lyndon Johnson to hear, just to let you know that they may wear ties now, but their forefathers carried battle axes. It is in the midst of the polite Estonians that I become acutely aware of my Mediterranean hilltop peasant roots, dirt that cannot be scrubbed free. What do the singing elephants think of me?

And here's the calendar I've been waiting to see, the one with the photos of Estonians in military uniform, German military uniform. It hangs innocently on the wall and I suppose there is nothing wrong with it, to those who will listen, except the conscripted soldiers are smiling like they actually are having a swell time under foreign military occupation. "It was a great time," they say, "they gave us these cool uniforms, neat guns, three squares a day." There's something very hazy and peculiar and Los Angeles about the whole scene, like they really shot the photos somewhere up in the smog of the Hollywood Hills.

The Estonians don't talk about the calendar though. They offer you food, they offer you beer, they offer you coffee, they want to talk about languages and lives and the coming of the euro. Everyone is so polite. Why are they so polite to me? I look around at the faces in the room and they all look similar, the Uralic eyes, the Teutonic ears. They are all related, they've been together for a long, long time. From the marshlands to the mesas, from the Läänemeri to the Pacific Ocean. And this is the end. There is nowhere else to go. The kids speak Estonian, but the grandkids? I tell them I am disappointed in LA. I was expecting to see Angelina Jolie. "I'll go call her," a gentleman says and walks out the door. "Angelina will be right over."

Cue Cesar. My college roommate enters with his gal Jenna, she of the Cheviot Hills/Culver City borderlands. Cesar used to take half-hour showers screaming Del the Funkee Homosapien lyrics from our eighth-floor window. Now he's the real thing, a hip hop John Travolta. Cesar's got shoulder-length black hair, a faint mustache. He doesn't look like he comes to the Estonian House often, but is here now, and he's here because of me.

From the Estonian House to the Hollywood Cemetery. Dia de los Muertos. Horns, drums, skulls, sombreros, puppets, portable toilets, glowing lights, altars, beef burritos, skeleton earrings and pipes, Frida Kahlo badges, dresses and braids, sugary churros, painted faces, t-shirts that read chicano and chicana, and at its beating heart, the furnace of death, the Mexicans.

Mexican chicas are as beautiful as Estonian plikad, their superb beauty in part because of what the geneticists call "admixture." The chicas are toasting the dead out in Hollywood, they celebrate death, they're playing death on the radio. Muy delicioso! "What should I get Epp? I don't want to scare her." "You've got to get her something with skulls," Jenna answers, a cigarette hanging from her lips. "Then she'll really know you've been to LA." And I like the city, I like the day of the dead because just as there is something to being Estonian, there is something to being Mexican. But what does it mean to be American? "What do you want for breakfast?" Jenna asks the next morning, groggy. "Mexican or Hawaiian?" What does it mean?

46 kommentaari:

Kalle Kniivilä ütles ...

You write very well. Well, you should, being a writer... :-)

There is an Eesti maja where I live as well, in the South of Sweden. Sounds similar, except I don't think there is any beer here. I've been there a couple of times, because the local Esperanto club used to meet there. Only we were thrown out as the local Estonian octogenarians thoght Esperanto had something to do with Communism...

Anyway, I think there are few first generation refugees left, and the younger Estonians don't really know what to do with the Eesti maja, so it will probably be sold soon.


LPR ütles ...

Absent the drug theme, this is getting awfully close to Hunter Thompson's gonzo style reporting. What I really appreciate is the all this sunny approach but you just feel the desperate, dark and ominous lurking not far from the edges. Love it. G is getting better with each swing he takes.

LPR ütles ...

I need to put on some Doors and read it again.

Giustino ütles ...

Absent the drug theme, this is getting awfully close to Hunter Thompson's gonzo style reporting.

Hunter borrowed from a lot from Kerouac, who stole ideas from Miller, who was influenced by Proust and Celine.

Unknown ütles ...

¡Órale, ese! I really, really liked your post. Deberías de empezar un blog en español, también, o por lo menos en chicano. ¡Tienes el estilo correcto, vato! Además de que eres un hermano.

I agree that Estonians and Mexicans are both very pretty. I actually have to confess from looking at my own daughter that the mixture between the two is also astonishing.

I knew an Estonian/German couple in the U.S. (north midwest) who had left Europe during the 40's and they had expressly not taught their children their own mother tongues. They still loved their countries, but I guess it was very loaded with emotion and mixed feelings back then. In the end, the U.S. is, if not a melting-pot, an oven were lots of different roots are fusing or co-existing.

Thanks, gracias, aitäh!

Unknown ütles ...

Nagu ütleski üks kord Manu Chao, bänd Mano Negra'st:
Ornella Muti
Si jolie mademoiselle
Vous êtes ma folie
Vous êtes si belle

Ornella Mutil oli ka eesti ja ladina vanemad.

Joshua ütles ...

Estonians are short? Huh? What? How? When?

Did I read that wrong? Or have I just never looked down?

Joshua ütles ...

"But what does it mean to be American?"

Doing peyote in the Mojave Desert.

Seriously, it's all about the highways and the supernatural - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phtkv9NWjLA

From an outsider's perspective of course.

LPR ütles ...

I took that "estonians are short" as a figure of speech. It did not apply to their physical appearance. At least not for me. The article is trippy, one is required to see the meaning behind the meaning which may or may not have a meaning depending on reader's own life experiences and associations. It's like jazz. It sounds different to different people.

Lingüista ütles ...

Kalle Kniivilä, you are an Esperantist? Ankaux mi havas tiun problemon...

Why would Swedish Esperantists need the local Eesti Maja for their meetings? Can't the Sveda Esperanto-Federacio help you guys out?

Lingüista ütles ...

Jalkameister, me haces ganas de contestarte... Pero mi español es demasiado literario y europeo, ¡no me defederá de tus ataques chicanos!

Anonüümne ütles ...

Congratulations Justin, you have finally arrived... your mother must be very proud.

caleb ütles ...

yo Justin. during my flight from Chicago to Reno I read almost all your book. my wife gave it to me before I left Estonia. it made me feel like I was there. ahhhh the similarities kept me laughing constantly. Evelin had a pet rat too. haha.

Unknown ütles ...

American "estonians" are shorter than we here and me with my 180,5 cm and ösel-ishe roots am even here all the time towering over most of the women (OK, with heels, I can´t walk without them), though I have to agree that tall women here are bit more lucky in the men´s department.
And I just love this fragmentary writing style, it gives a freedom to jump around a lot, doesn´t it :)

plasma-jack ütles ...

For all the culture shock enthusiasts from southern countries: a picture showing Finns standing in bus stop. Looks genuine.

Giustino ütles ...

I really want to write a post about the application of "Jante" to Estonia, especially given the recent backlash against Sofi Oksanen. People are afraid of being successful in Estonia, specifically because it entails being hated by all other Estonians.

Tell me if most of these can't be applied to Eesti:

The ten* rules state:

1.Don't think you're anything special.
2.Don't think you're as much as us.
3.Don't think you're wiser than us.
4.Don't convince yourself that you're better than us.
5.Don't think you know more than us.
6.Don't think you are more than us.
7.Don't think you are good at anything.
8.Don't laugh at us.
9.Don't think anyone cares about you.
10.Don't think you can teach us anything.
*11. Don't think there's anything we don't know about you.

Unknown ütles ...

Funny you should mention janteloven - here in the deep dark end of southern Denmark it's very much alive and well, as it was in Estonia when I lived there.

In Estonia it just never was codified into a "Whack-A-Mole" but into a much more fun game called "Poke-A-Bear" (and gouge it's eyes out).

Thick skin, agility, and a certain amount of "village idiot" reputation will work wonders against both approaches to create dependable linear, uniform and scared people quite well.

Though, I must admit, I do have a unfair advantage here in Denmark against natives - "not made here", gives me a great deal of leeway to be dismissed as mostly harmless :D

LPR ütles ...

Jante Law is interesting. Come to think of it, I've experienced it in small ways too. I recall several older people looking with open derision at my shopping cart which was loaded to the hilt with all the things I needed for the weekend party at the cottage. It was just groceries and some alcohol. I've never experienced before how rich people must feel when they come into close contact with "the commoners". I should have made multiple mini shopping tips to avoid that. Funny and sad how they said nothing directly to me, but started yelling at the poor cash register girl who they thought was too slow processing my purchases. I must have met their eyes and I am naturally good at brow beating myself. So, it was interesting. Nothing I'd get to experience in the local Whole Foods or Balducci's here.

Giustino ütles ...

The same thing has happened to me. One old drunk said, "Oh my God," when he saw my groceries, like every person should only by sprats, cigarettes, and beer.

Mardus ütles ...

That's because most people (?) without cars shop almost every day and buy the amount they need for that day and the next. There are like 5 shops within walking distance anyway (at least where I am).

Stocking up for the week may probably originate from weekly paychecks in the U.S. and long distances between a suburban house and the nearest mall that happens to be the only one within driving distance.

And common (IMHO) petite bourgeoisie pensioners are anyway very jealous, especially in Tallinn: They just cannot regard that someone is doing better than they are. Yet I haven't noticed such derision towards filled shopping carts myself...

Giustino ütles ...

Stocking up for the week may probably originate from weekly paychecks in the U.S. and long distances between a suburban house and the nearest mall that happens to be the only one within driving distance.

I just figured I'd save myself the trip to buy more food. Plus fresh produce isn't that easily accessible in Estonia. I went to Rimi one day to buy a steak, they told me I would have to drive to the Maxima on the edge of town ;) Needless to say, they weren't selling it at Säästumarket or the A ja O. All the shops have plenty of booze though. Priorities, priorities ...

Mardus ütles ...


Plus fresh produce isn't that easily accessible in Estonia.

Not just animal meat: Eesti Ekspress has it that shops sell week-old trout and salmon imported from Scandinaevia.

When I was nearly a couple years ago at the Linnu tee Hyperrimi (in Tallinn), they had live fish in the aquarium!

And if you're out of Tallinn, then you won't find decent licorice anywhere.

All the shops have plenty of booze though.

Consumption of which has fallen from the peak 12.6 litres per capita in 2007 to 10.2 l per head a year ago because of the masu. The result now is that the amount of injuries and deaths caused by alcohol-related traffic accidents has fallen sharply. Yay.

moevenort ütles ...

concerning the calendar showing Estonians in German military uniforms. there is a new book out since 2009 already,based on a PhD study. it´s called "Murder without Hatred. Estonians and the Holocaust."

out of the description:

"In this detailed study of Estonians' role in the Holocaust, Anton Weiss-Wendt casts light on a largely unexplored subject. A country known for its benevolent treatment of ethnic minorities, Estonia had a small number of indigenous Jews, and anti-Semitism existed on a relatively limited scale. However, many ethnic Estonians, acting as auxiliary security forces under the guidance of the German security police, participated in the murder of thousands of Estonian, Czech, and German Jews. Weiss-Wendt investigates these acts of genocide by posing the simple question: What prompted the Estonians to cooperate with the Nazis? He argues that the actions were voluntary but that the reasons varied. Narrating the history of Estonia's involvement, Weiss-Wendt presents lucid explanations regarding the relationships between nation-building, mass violence, and the brutal effects of authoritarian oppression on occupied states.

The first book-length exploration of this aspect of the Holocaust, Murder Without Hatred: Estonians and the Holocaust enriches our knowledge of ethnic violence and reinvigorates the current debates over the roots and operation of the Holocaust."


out of an review:

"Weiss-Wendt offers a different motivation for Estonians' participation in the Holocaust: a quest to prove their worth to Germany with an eye on their position in the future National Socialist order. The relationship between the Third Reich and Estonia had been close since the 1930s. Germany's desire for the shale oil deposits of the Baltic led to such close economic ties that by 1939, the Estonian economy was all but dependent on Germany's. In addition to these economic connections, each country viewed the other as a possible partner; from Tallinn's perspective, Germany offered security against the reimposition of Bolshevism, while many racial theorists in Berlin viewed the Estonians as the most racially developed group in eastern Europe. The combination of these factors--as well as a local German leadership, unusually attuned to the national Estonian psyche, that did its best to placate the locals--led to a strong relationship between the two states during the war. As Weiss-Wendt notes, "Estonia was probably the only country in occupied Eastern Europe without armed anti-German resistance" (p. 74).

The desire to ensure an independent position in Nazi-dominated Europe led Estonians not only to acquiesce to German rule, but also to participate willingly in the Holocaust. Since the eradication of European Jewry was one of the Reich's overriding war aims, Estonian cooperation would only serve to further ingratiate them with Germany. Linking this willingness to the notion of destroying communism strengthened Estonian national identity by "wip[ing] away the shame and humiliation caused by the Soviet takeover of 1940" (p. 337). The overriding desire to regain the short-lived sovereignty of the interwar period led Estonians to "sacrifice not only their own lives but also the lives of others" (p. 339). In fact, they became "eager collaborators," as this was the only way to restore an independent state and their national pride (p. 343). While such a line of argumentation provides some important insight into Estonia's role in the Holocaust, it still seems to complement the idea that Estonians did indeed subscribe to the idea of a Judeo-Bolshevik threat."


Joshua ütles ...

At the moment you're just being ridiculously off-topic. The current theme was tall women, peyote and jante's law.

Joshua ütles ...

Oh, Giustino actually talked about the calendar. Forgot all about that.
I'd still prefer talk about tall women though.

We've been over this before and it's doubtful that we're going to have any new revelations.

moevenort ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
moevenort ütles ...

@ Joshua:

I`m sorry, but I was bringing up this because the book I mentioned bases on new research and information about a topic which in my opinion is important for one reason: because no one is talking about it in Estonia normally, because there is no debate about what happened and because this topic is a kind of tabu in Estonia. No "Aufarbeitung" has ever taken place about it yet. I hope I was sufficently able to explain my argument. Additionally I found some of the points mentioned in this book quite scaring: I think"murder without emotion" is a quite accurate description. Because it describes killing without emotion, just for opportunism. Do you know the term "trawniki"? It is originally the name of a village in Poland where German SS during WW II trained local collaborators from Eastern European countries The name "trawniki" then became a synonym for these people, they were often used as guards in concentration camps, most of them did this service voluntarily, many Estonians as well. In the eyes of the prisoners the "trawniki" where even worse and more cruel than the regular German SS units. Because trawniki killed with a kind of emontionless cruelty.

moevenort ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
moevenort ütles ...

from the Nazi-German perspective there is also one other point of interest from the psychological point of view: although German Wehrmacht and SS were dependent on local collaborators (or trawniki), they did not like them too much. I mean, it´s clear, without so much help from local collaborators in the occupied countries, nazi-killing machine would not have worked so easily. but the Nazis themselves did not respect the collaborators. it´s somehow comparable with the grinds at school: the others school boys and girls recognize that the grinds have knowledge and are useful, but they neither like nore respect them. or with the role of criminal police informers for regular police men. they know they need them, but they realize that those informers always have something sneaky or bootlicking... the same it is with trawniki, regardeless if they have been polish, ukrain, estonian or latvian collaborators who helped to kill.

moevenort ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
LPR ütles ...

Hmmm. Maybe "trawniki" were just administrating Jante's Law to the jews. Nothing personal, just business? Emotions would have been very out of place and un professional, if you will.

Unknown ütles ...

moevenort, while you are at it why don't you just take direct quotes from Soviet-era historiography? The ridiculous claims and the credibility of the authors are just the same.

Lingüista ütles ...

Ah, moevenort... Such deep knowledge of the literature.

What do you have against Estonians? Did an Estonian girl dump you?

moevenort ütles ...

@ evil purc, lingüista:

of course you can start your childish games again, trying to discredite what you don´t like. or you can seriously deal with the argument as the better way.
so what the hell the book from Weiss-Wendt has to do with soviet historians? nothing. so don´t discredit a serious author when you have nothing serious against him in your hands. what you have is your prejudices and the childish wish to defend Estonia`s official picture of history as a poor victim of communism. but this picture is not true. concerning Estonian girls: I` sorry to disappoint you. as engaged with the best girl from East Germany I could find for long years now, there has never been interest at all from my side. apart from that, I prefer independent girls who are able to think for themselves. quite rare type in Estonia I would guess;)

Joshua ütles ...

"Estonia`s official picture of history as a poor victim of communism."

True. A film like the Poll Diaries, wouldn't be made in Estonia, because it has an estonian anarchist in it. And that's politically confusing for modern republic raised estonians.

But we've been over this. There are so many 50-page rants I can write on the subject. Turns out other people have brains too.

"I prefer independent girls who are able to think for themselves. quite rare type in Estonia I would guess."

Actually no. Estonian girls I know are all for multiculturalism, gay rights and all that modern day western secular humanist fun. Very strong-willed and opinionated about what is wrong in estonia.

Do tend to dislike russians and can be unaware about their own eastern europan looks and behaviour (this depends on if they've been abroad or not), but independent is their thing completely.

Joshua ütles ...

The only real fault in estonian women is daddy issues.

Unknown ütles ...

Just some issues with Weiss-Wendt:

He downplays or denys the horrors of the Soviet regime at every opportunity. Reminds me of someone who denies the holocaust. It seems he is extreemely biased and has an agenda rather than finding out the truth.

Just by finding a few incidents he tries to construct some sort of collective guilt hypothesis for all Estonians, kind of like moevenort is trying to do.

Propagating collective guilt is a primitive and hateful thing to do. Advanced legal systems do not accpet this conception. In fact the notion of collective guilt is the very foundation for every type of discrimination. It is also the actual basis for acts of genocide. I'm stunned Weiss-Wendt does not realize this while writing about genocide. He dehumanizes Estonians.

He does not analyze or mention all the extensive research that has been done in the filed. He just chooses to completely ignore works such as the extremely thorough and maticulous (over 1300 pages long) "Reports of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity". This is inexcusable for a serious historian.

Unknown ütles ...

to meovenort:

I disagree with your impression of Estonian women. The majority are very independent and clear thinkers, sometimes better than Estonian men.

Thanks for pointing out that there were some local collaborators during WWII. That is already known. You want arguments? There are plenty which can be provided and have been provided to you. Also, if you bothered searching for it, you would also find that Estonian governments since reindependence have condemned nazi ideology as well as condemning those Estonians who were part of the crimes committed in Estonia during WWII. I would not want to make propaganda for any political party, and certainly not for the Reformierakond, but the first google search showed this, which you should read:

So search for your nazis and neo-nazis somewhere else, please.

Unknown ütles ...

I guess the link should be transcribed here, in the interest of everyone since moevenort likes to hijack discussions. It's by no means the only statement. Pres. Ilves has also spoken about it, both at the reopening of the synagogue in Tallinn as well as elsewhere.

Address by Prime Minister Andrus Ansip in Klooga, Estonia
8 May 2005

This day marks the victory over Nazism and the end of the last great war in Europe.

Although for Estonia, the end of the war does not signify liberation, nevertheless, it does represent an important victory over totalitarianism.

Here in Klooga, we are in a place, which symbolizes the evil and inhumanity of the Nazi ideology.

Nazism was a very difficult burden for all nations over which it ruled. But the Holocaust was the most hideous of the crimes perpetrated by the Nazis.

I am extremely sorry, that this systematic extermination of the Jewish people touches Estonia. It affected both Estonian Jews and those who were transported here to die in the concentration camps established by the Nazis.

All Estonian Governments have condemned crimes against humanity and we will continue to do so, just as do other democratic states.

Last Thursday, the Government of the Republic of Estonia released an official statement, in which it regrets the fact that in cooperation with occupying powers, citizens of the Republic of Estonia also participated in the perpetration of crimes against humanity.

Although these murderers must answer for their crimes as individuals, the Estonian Government continues to do everything possible to expose these crimes.

I apologise for the fact that Estonian citizens could be found among those who participated in the murdering of people or assisted in the perpetration of these crimes.

The Estonian state did not want war. Neither the state nor the people of Estonia entered this war or supported Nazi ideology. Unfortunately, this foreign war was forced upon the Estonian nation, as a result of which, our people suffered severe losses.

We must keep looking towards the future. The system of states and relations of nations built in Europe has no place for Nazism or any another totalitarian ideas. It will no longer be possible to drag the Estonian people into a war at the will of others, or in someone else’s interests.

We can all, here in Estonia, devote ourselves to our everyday tasks. We will build our future in a way that events like the Second World War will never repeat themselves.

Today is a day of reconciliation. Let us commemorate unlived lives and think about the future.

Lingüista ütles ...

Ah, movenort... None of this stuff is ignored, only perhaps in your imagination. But thanks for repeating the same old stuff again, regardless of what other people have already told you about this. I guess you like the sound of your voice. Or of your keyboard. :-)

Jalkmeister, you're right, of course, but moevenort already knows this. I don't think he's going to stop just because of that. It's like a religion to him, you know.

LPR ütles ...

Movenort just likes to instigate. He has no big agenda or good intentions. I get it. There is no other purpose than to push the buttons that can be pushed and watch what happens. Let's fight fire with fire. So let me see, wow, I think here's a nice button on movenort. Right here... plop ...

Considering how much good old, in-out-in-out and ultraviolence the liberating soviet troops did to the womenfolk on the German territory in 1945, chances are, that our movenort has a strange proclivity to chewing sunflower seeds and drinking vodka.

Joshua ütles ...

"Considering how much good old, in-out-in-out and ultraviolence the liberating soviet troops did to the womenfolk on the German territory in 1945, chances are, that our movenort has a strange proclivity to chewing sunflower seeds and drinking vodka."

Do you realize how wrong that sounds? Implying that somebody is wrong because he has russian genes?

There's this wonderful russian satire on Gazprom and current political regime - http://vimeo.com/12130035

Look at their faces. Those faces are indistinguishable from estonian faces. My god, they're even the same! Jesus, say it's not so! I swear that lady in the secret evil council, is Pille Taikla from Pärnu. She is into Taize and that whole catholic neo-spiritualiy. And that other guy is Aivar Priidumets, a true fan of Martin Helme from Haapsalu.

Point is, estonians are balts are northern russians are estonians. We are all the same here, same genes, same race, same skull structure, same skin color - the only thing that is different is language (and historical narrative and culture, though some of the culture is overlapping).

You're also using a blatnoi stereotype (which is chav in England) and ascribe it to an entire people. But genes does not a blatnoi make, nor a chav, nor a rullnokk.

That has to do with socio-economic/socio-cultural factors.

LPR ütles ...

Of course I do. That is the point. A kick in the groin. Just like moven, I am an equal opportunity offender. Sometimes I am so offensive, that I even offend myself.

I do it and then I wipe tears. It hurts so good.

Joshua ütles ...

Oh well. If you equally offend yourself, well I guess that makes up for it.

Lingüista ütles ...

I think that was Piimapukk's point, Joshua. Of course it would be stupid to forget the common life of Slavs, Balts, and Finno-Ugrians in this neck of the woods for the last millenium or so... and genes don't determine one's scoundrelicity level. It was just a way to push moevenort's buttons... since he apparently likes to push other people's, and then does not seem to acknolewdge when counter-arguments are offered.

If moevenort were interested in actually discussing and exchanging ideas, some of the topics might even be very interesting. Alas, he isn't.

Joshua ütles ...

Yeah I got that now. Quite clever in a twisted sort of way.