tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post1074182934104826087..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: l.a.Giustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-56982603389234162682010-11-22T01:14:15.009+02:002010-11-22T01:14:15.009+02:00Yeah I got that now. Quite clever in a twisted sor...Yeah I got that now. Quite clever in a twisted sort of way.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-77944197025193609322010-11-21T22:57:46.955+02:002010-11-21T22:57:46.955+02:00I think that was Piimapukk's point, Joshua. Of...I think that was Piimapukk's point, Joshua. Of course it would be stupid to forget the common life of Slavs, Balts, and Finno-Ugrians in this neck of the woods for the last millenium or so... and genes don't determine one's scoundrelicity level. It was just a way to push moevenort's buttons... since he apparently likes to push other people's, and then does not seem to acknolewdge when counter-arguments are offered.<br /><br />If moevenort were interested in actually discussing and exchanging ideas, some of the topics might even be very interesting. Alas, he isn't.Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-28507999258000033182010-11-21T11:20:55.852+02:002010-11-21T11:20:55.852+02:00Oh well. If you equally offend yourself, well I gu...Oh well. If you equally offend yourself, well I guess that makes up for it.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-90688321995180174842010-11-21T03:34:53.878+02:002010-11-21T03:34:53.878+02:00Of course I do. That is the point. A kick in the...Of course I do. That is the point. A kick in the groin. Just like moven, I am an equal opportunity offender. Sometimes I am so offensive, that I even offend myself.<br /><br />I do it and then I wipe tears. It hurts so good.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-54329430317501777222010-11-20T06:41:57.166+02:002010-11-20T06:41:57.166+02:00"Considering how much good old, in-out-in-out..."Considering how much good old, in-out-in-out and ultraviolence the liberating soviet troops did to the womenfolk on the German territory in 1945, chances are, that our movenort has a strange proclivity to chewing sunflower seeds and drinking vodka."<br /><br />Do you realize how wrong that sounds? Implying that somebody is wrong because he has russian genes?<br /><br />There's this wonderful russian satire on Gazprom and current political regime - http://vimeo.com/12130035<br /><br />Look at their faces. Those faces are indistinguishable from estonian faces. My god, they're even the same! Jesus, say it's not so! I swear that lady in the secret evil council, is Pille Taikla from Pärnu. She is into Taize and that whole catholic neo-spiritualiy. And that other guy is Aivar Priidumets, a true fan of Martin Helme from Haapsalu.<br /><br />Point is, estonians are balts are northern russians are estonians. We are all the same here, same genes, same race, same skull structure, same skin color - the only thing that is different is language (and historical narrative and culture, though some of the culture is overlapping).<br /><br />You're also using a blatnoi stereotype (which is chav in England) and ascribe it to an entire people. But genes does not a blatnoi make, nor a chav, nor a rullnokk.<br /><br />That has to do with socio-economic/socio-cultural factors.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-86886268721526244082010-11-19T23:16:49.059+02:002010-11-19T23:16:49.059+02:00Movenort just likes to instigate. He has no big ag...Movenort just likes to instigate. He has no big agenda or good intentions. I get it. There is no other purpose than to push the buttons that can be pushed and watch what happens. Let's fight fire with fire. So let me see, wow, I think here's a nice button on movenort. Right here... plop ...<br /><br />Considering how much good old, in-out-in-out and ultraviolence the liberating soviet troops did to the womenfolk on the German territory in 1945, chances are, that our movenort has a strange proclivity to chewing sunflower seeds and drinking vodka.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-69498777046630208282010-11-19T14:23:35.322+02:002010-11-19T14:23:35.322+02:00Ah, movenort... None of this stuff is ignored, onl...Ah, movenort... None of this stuff is ignored, only perhaps in your imagination. But thanks for repeating the same old stuff again, regardless of what other people have already told you about this. I guess you like the sound of your voice. Or of your keyboard. :-)<br /><br />Jalkmeister, you're right, of course, but moevenort already knows this. I don't think he's going to stop just because of that. It's like a religion to him, you know.Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-6674226823606150372010-11-18T19:59:40.197+02:002010-11-18T19:59:40.197+02:00I guess the link should be transcribed here, in th...I guess the link should be transcribed here, in the interest of everyone since moevenort likes to hijack discussions. It's by no means the only statement. Pres. Ilves has also spoken about it, both at the reopening of the synagogue in Tallinn as well as elsewhere.<br /><br />Address by Prime Minister Andrus Ansip in Klooga, Estonia<br />8 May 2005<br /><br />This day marks the victory over Nazism and the end of the last great war in Europe.<br /><br />Although for Estonia, the end of the war does not signify liberation, nevertheless, it does represent an important victory over totalitarianism.<br /><br />Here in Klooga, we are in a place, which symbolizes the evil and inhumanity of the Nazi ideology.<br /><br />Nazism was a very difficult burden for all nations over which it ruled. But the Holocaust was the most hideous of the crimes perpetrated by the Nazis.<br /><br />I am extremely sorry, that this systematic extermination of the Jewish people touches Estonia. It affected both Estonian Jews and those who were transported here to die in the concentration camps established by the Nazis.<br /><br />All Estonian Governments have condemned crimes against humanity and we will continue to do so, just as do other democratic states.<br /><br />Last Thursday, the Government of the Republic of Estonia released an official statement, in which it regrets the fact that in cooperation with occupying powers, citizens of the Republic of Estonia also participated in the perpetration of crimes against humanity.<br /><br />Although these murderers must answer for their crimes as individuals, the Estonian Government continues to do everything possible to expose these crimes.<br /><br />I apologise for the fact that Estonian citizens could be found among those who participated in the murdering of people or assisted in the perpetration of these crimes.<br /><br />The Estonian state did not want war. Neither the state nor the people of Estonia entered this war or supported Nazi ideology. Unfortunately, this foreign war was forced upon the Estonian nation, as a result of which, our people suffered severe losses.<br /><br />We must keep looking towards the future. The system of states and relations of nations built in Europe has no place for Nazism or any another totalitarian ideas. It will no longer be possible to drag the Estonian people into a war at the will of others, or in someone else’s interests.<br /><br />We can all, here in Estonia, devote ourselves to our everyday tasks. We will build our future in a way that events like the Second World War will never repeat themselves.<br /><br />Today is a day of reconciliation. Let us commemorate unlived lives and think about the future.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165308056327895551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-56532530220233940912010-11-18T19:55:37.206+02:002010-11-18T19:55:37.206+02:00to meovenort:
I disagree with your impression of...to meovenort: <br /><br />I disagree with your impression of Estonian women. The majority are very independent and clear thinkers, sometimes better than Estonian men. <br /><br />Thanks for pointing out that there were some local collaborators during WWII. That is already known. You want arguments? There are plenty which can be provided and have been provided to you. Also, if you bothered searching for it, you would also find that Estonian governments since reindependence have condemned nazi ideology as well as condemning those Estonians who were part of the crimes committed in Estonia during WWII. I would not want to make propaganda for any political party, and certainly not for the Reformierakond, but the first google search showed this, which you should read:<br />http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/3457<br /><br />So search for your nazis and neo-nazis somewhere else, please.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165308056327895551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-42740978976498437122010-11-18T09:52:13.674+02:002010-11-18T09:52:13.674+02:00Just some issues with Weiss-Wendt:
He downplays o...Just some issues with Weiss-Wendt:<br /><br />He downplays or denys the horrors of the Soviet regime at every opportunity. Reminds me of someone who denies the holocaust. It seems he is extreemely biased and has an agenda rather than finding out the truth.<br /><br />Just by finding a few incidents he tries to construct some sort of collective guilt hypothesis for all Estonians, kind of like moevenort is trying to do. <br /><br />Propagating collective guilt is a primitive and hateful thing to do. Advanced legal systems do not accpet this conception. In fact the notion of collective guilt is the very foundation for every type of discrimination. It is also the actual basis for acts of genocide. I'm stunned Weiss-Wendt does not realize this while writing about genocide. He dehumanizes Estonians.<br /><br />He does not analyze or mention all the extensive research that has been done in the filed. He just chooses to completely ignore works such as the extremely thorough and maticulous (over 1300 pages long) "Reports of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity". This is inexcusable for a serious historian.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-52360837230451737472010-11-18T02:22:49.741+02:002010-11-18T02:22:49.741+02:00The only real fault in estonian women is daddy iss...The only real fault in estonian women is daddy issues.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-58787577338269810702010-11-18T02:17:04.241+02:002010-11-18T02:17:04.241+02:00"Estonia`s official picture of history as a p..."Estonia`s official picture of history as a poor victim of communism."<br /><br />True. A film like the Poll Diaries, wouldn't be made in Estonia, because it has an estonian anarchist in it. And that's politically confusing for modern republic raised estonians. <br /><br />But we've been over this. There are so many 50-page rants I can write on the subject. Turns out other people have brains too.<br /><br />"I prefer independent girls who are able to think for themselves. quite rare type in Estonia I would guess."<br /><br />Actually no. Estonian girls I know are all for multiculturalism, gay rights and all that modern day western secular humanist fun. Very strong-willed and opinionated about what is wrong in estonia. <br /><br />Do tend to dislike russians and can be unaware about their own eastern europan looks and behaviour (this depends on if they've been abroad or not), but independent is their thing completely.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-27277624589447860292010-11-17T21:43:24.748+02:002010-11-17T21:43:24.748+02:00@ evil purc, lingüista:
of course you can start y...@ evil purc, lingüista:<br /><br />of course you can start your childish games again, trying to discredite what you don´t like. or you can seriously deal with the argument as the better way. <br />so what the hell the book from Weiss-Wendt has to do with soviet historians? nothing. so don´t discredit a serious author when you have nothing serious against him in your hands. what you have is your prejudices and the childish wish to defend Estonia`s official picture of history as a poor victim of communism. but this picture is not true. concerning Estonian girls: I` sorry to disappoint you. as engaged with the best girl from East Germany I could find for long years now, there has never been interest at all from my side. apart from that, I prefer independent girls who are able to think for themselves. quite rare type in Estonia I would guess;)moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-40324800822270773542010-11-17T21:09:45.023+02:002010-11-17T21:09:45.023+02:00Ah, moevenort... Such deep knowledge of the litera...Ah, moevenort... Such deep knowledge of the literature.<br /><br />What do you have against Estonians? Did an Estonian girl dump you?Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-67616975629756178312010-11-17T15:56:46.556+02:002010-11-17T15:56:46.556+02:00moevenort, while you are at it why don't you j...moevenort, while you are at it why don't you just take direct quotes from Soviet-era historiography? The ridiculous claims and the credibility of the authors are just the same.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-25982341616779782272010-11-17T04:34:11.390+02:002010-11-17T04:34:11.390+02:00Hmmm. Maybe "trawniki" were just admini...Hmmm. Maybe "trawniki" were just administrating Jante's Law to the jews. Nothing personal, just business? Emotions would have been very out of place and un professional, if you will.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-6177114888386188222010-11-17T03:32:12.436+02:002010-11-17T03:32:12.436+02:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-16474415611250443082010-11-17T03:32:03.587+02:002010-11-17T03:32:03.587+02:00from the Nazi-German perspective there is also one...from the Nazi-German perspective there is also one other point of interest from the psychological point of view: although German Wehrmacht and SS were dependent on local collaborators (or trawniki), they did not like them too much. I mean, it´s clear, without so much help from local collaborators in the occupied countries, nazi-killing machine would not have worked so easily. but the Nazis themselves did not respect the collaborators. it´s somehow comparable with the grinds at school: the others school boys and girls recognize that the grinds have knowledge and are useful, but they neither like nore respect them. or with the role of criminal police informers for regular police men. they know they need them, but they realize that those informers always have something sneaky or bootlicking... the same it is with trawniki, regardeless if they have been polish, ukrain, estonian or latvian collaborators who helped to kill.moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-71477315234373178122010-11-17T03:28:57.760+02:002010-11-17T03:28:57.760+02:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-24297814309263402302010-11-17T03:00:07.977+02:002010-11-17T03:00:07.977+02:00@ Joshua:
I`m sorry, but I was bringing up this b...@ Joshua:<br /><br />I`m sorry, but I was bringing up this because the book I mentioned bases on new research and information about a topic which in my opinion is important for one reason: because no one is talking about it in Estonia normally, because there is no debate about what happened and because this topic is a kind of tabu in Estonia. No "Aufarbeitung" has ever taken place about it yet. I hope I was sufficently able to explain my argument. Additionally I found some of the points mentioned in this book quite scaring: I think"murder without emotion" is a quite accurate description. Because it describes killing without emotion, just for opportunism. Do you know the term "trawniki"? It is originally the name of a village in Poland where German SS during WW II trained local collaborators from Eastern European countries The name "trawniki" then became a synonym for these people, they were often used as guards in concentration camps, most of them did this service voluntarily, many Estonians as well. In the eyes of the prisoners the "trawniki" where even worse and more cruel than the regular German SS units. Because trawniki killed with a kind of emontionless cruelty.moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-46241704041128762692010-11-17T02:56:54.119+02:002010-11-17T02:56:54.119+02:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-2743306103992211832010-11-17T01:49:25.485+02:002010-11-17T01:49:25.485+02:00Oh, Giustino actually talked about the calendar. F...Oh, Giustino actually talked about the calendar. Forgot all about that. <br />I'd still prefer talk about tall women though.<br /><br />We've been over this before and it's doubtful that we're going to have any new revelations.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-55741065570531565962010-11-17T01:43:39.703+02:002010-11-17T01:43:39.703+02:00At the moment you're just being ridiculously o...At the moment you're just being ridiculously off-topic. The current theme was tall women, peyote and jante's law.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186977204918927112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-28102650970366984912010-11-16T23:21:18.499+02:002010-11-16T23:21:18.499+02:00concerning the calendar showing Estonians in Germa...concerning the calendar showing Estonians in German military uniforms. there is a new book out since 2009 already,based on a PhD study. it´s called "Murder without Hatred. Estonians and the Holocaust."<br /><br />out of the description:<br /><br />"In this detailed study of Estonians' role in the Holocaust, Anton Weiss-Wendt casts light on a largely unexplored subject. A country known for its benevolent treatment of ethnic minorities, Estonia had a small number of indigenous Jews, and anti-Semitism existed on a relatively limited scale. However, many ethnic Estonians, acting as auxiliary security forces under the guidance of the German security police, participated in the murder of thousands of Estonian, Czech, and German Jews. Weiss-Wendt investigates these acts of genocide by posing the simple question: What prompted the Estonians to cooperate with the Nazis? He argues that the actions were voluntary but that the reasons varied. Narrating the history of Estonia's involvement, Weiss-Wendt presents lucid explanations regarding the relationships between nation-building, mass violence, and the brutal effects of authoritarian oppression on occupied states.<br /><br />The first book-length exploration of this aspect of the Holocaust, Murder Without Hatred: Estonians and the Holocaust enriches our knowledge of ethnic violence and reinvigorates the current debates over the roots and operation of the Holocaust." <br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Without-Hatred-Estonians-Holocaust/dp/0815632282<br /><br />out of an review:<br /><br />"Weiss-Wendt offers a different motivation for Estonians' participation in the Holocaust: a quest to prove their worth to Germany with an eye on their position in the future National Socialist order. The relationship between the Third Reich and Estonia had been close since the 1930s. Germany's desire for the shale oil deposits of the Baltic led to such close economic ties that by 1939, the Estonian economy was all but dependent on Germany's. In addition to these economic connections, each country viewed the other as a possible partner; from Tallinn's perspective, Germany offered security against the reimposition of Bolshevism, while many racial theorists in Berlin viewed the Estonians as the most racially developed group in eastern Europe. The combination of these factors--as well as a local German leadership, unusually attuned to the national Estonian psyche, that did its best to placate the locals--led to a strong relationship between the two states during the war. As Weiss-Wendt notes, "Estonia was probably the only country in occupied Eastern Europe without armed anti-German resistance" (p. 74).<br /><br />The desire to ensure an independent position in Nazi-dominated Europe led Estonians not only to acquiesce to German rule, but also to participate willingly in the Holocaust. Since the eradication of European Jewry was one of the Reich's overriding war aims, Estonian cooperation would only serve to further ingratiate them with Germany. Linking this willingness to the notion of destroying communism strengthened Estonian national identity by "wip[ing] away the shame and humiliation caused by the Soviet takeover of 1940" (p. 337). The overriding desire to regain the short-lived sovereignty of the interwar period led Estonians to "sacrifice not only their own lives but also the lives of others" (p. 339). In fact, they became "eager collaborators," as this was the only way to restore an independent state and their national pride (p. 343). While such a line of argumentation provides some important insight into Estonia's role in the Holocaust, it still seems to complement the idea that Estonians did indeed subscribe to the idea of a Judeo-Bolshevik threat."<br /><br />http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=26325moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-61185318418197540392010-11-14T17:34:36.748+02:002010-11-14T17:34:36.748+02:00@Giustino:
Plus fresh produce isn't that easi...@Giustino:<br /><br /><i>Plus fresh produce isn't that easily accessible in Estonia.</i><br /><br />Not just animal meat: Eesti Ekspress <a href="http://www.ekspress.ee/news/paevauudised/eestiuudised/varske-asemel-muuvad-poed-nadalavanust-forelli-ja-lohet.d?id=34844075" title="EE - Värske asemel müüvad poed nädalavanust forelli ja lõhet" rel="nofollow">has it</a> that shops sell week-old trout and salmon imported from Scandin<i>ae</i>via.<br /><br />When I was nearly a couple years ago at the Linnu tee Hyperrimi (in Tallinn), they had <i>live</i> fish in the aquarium!<br /><br />And if you're out of Tallinn, then you won't find decent licorice anywhere.<br /><br /><i>All the shops have plenty of booze though.</i><br /><br />Consumption of which has fallen from the peak 12.6 litres per capita in 2007 to 10.2 l per head a year ago because of the <i>masu</i>. The result now is that the amount of injuries and deaths caused by alcohol-related traffic accidents has <a href="http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/586828" title="EPL - Majanduskriis vähendas tublisti eestlaste viinahimu" rel="nofollow">fallen</a> sharply. Yay.Mardushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17727908952144069020noreply@blogger.com