kolmapäev, veebruar 21, 2007

Noh, hüva, teeme nii ...

Kui ma käisin Tallinna keeltekoolis kolm aastat tagasi, ma proovisin räägida eesti keeles nagu mu naine räägib kui ta helistab kellegile. Iga dialoog lõpetab sama moodi, "Noh, hüva, teeme nii."

Aga, kui ma ütlesin "hüva," nagu minu naine, siis meie keeleõpetaja vastas, "Mis on see 'hüva' jama?! - Hüva on tegelikult soome sõna, see ei ole tavaline eesti sõna."

Mina olin väga segaduses. Ma tahtsin teada miks mu naine ütles kogu aeg "hüva" aga minu õpetaja arvas et see oli mingi asi soome televisioonist. Siis, ma maletasin et minu naine on pärit mulgimaalt, aga õpetaja oli tallinnlane. Ja mu naine ütles minule, et "hüva" on tavaline lõuna eesti sõna mis põhja eestlased ei ütle.

Kas te teate veel sõnad mis on ainult põhja-eestist või lõuna eestist? Kas saarlastel on ka teised sõnad mis ei ole rahvakeeles? Mul on suur huvi.

74 kommentaari:

Ingrid ütles ...

"Hüva!" tähendab "Olgu!" või "Hästi!"
Põhja-Eesti kirjakeeles esineb seda vägagi palju.
Vanasõna: "Hüva nõu on kallis" = Hea nõuanne on palju väärt.
Võibolla su eesti keele õpetaja teab selle sõna täpsemat päritolumaad, kuid kuna eesti keel kuulub soome-ugri keelerühma, siis on selle sõna kasutamine õige ja õpetaja märkus oli vale.
Usu oma naist!
Kirjakeele reeglite väga täpne järgimine teeb keele vast korrektsemaks, kuid vaesemaks kindlasti. Ja kui sa suudad omandada niinimetatud kõnekeele, siis oled sa rohkem eestlane kui kodakondsuse saanud ja kirjakeele eksami läbinud muust rahvusest inimene.
Elav näide kõnekeele heast omandamisest on soomlane Larko.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Saarlasetel on igasuguseid huvitavaid sõnu. Näiteks vares on hoopis nonn.

Anonüümne ütles ...

"Hüva" ei tohiks küll kuidagi vaidlustada, tõepoolest! Kas või näiteks "hüvasti". Kui ta ka on soome päritolu, siis ometi on ta ääretult eesti keelde sisse kasvanud juba ammuste sajandite jooksul.

Põhja-Eesti keel on vist igal pool kõige valdavam tänapäevaks, aga samas on murdekeeltest lahedaid sünonüümsõnu. Nt. esik = vöörus ja pööning = ärkel (see on vist küll kusagilt skandinaaviast pigem?) ja selline = säänne = säherdune jne jne, mis samuti kõik keeles ühel või teisel määral kasutusel on.

Otseselt murdekeelega ei tasu ilmselt aga pead hakata murdma, sest eesti murretes on niivõrd palju täiesti erinevaid sõnu, mis kasutusele võetuna küll keelt palju rikastavad ning isegi väga ilusad on, aga keeleõppijale probleeme võivad valmistada.

Ingrid ütles ...

No need erinevad sõnad lähevad murde mõiste alla.
Eestis on rohkelt paikkondadele omaseid keelemurdeid, mille rääkijaist teine eestlane arugi ei tarvitse saada.
On aga sõnu, mis pole küll antud paikkonnale omased, kuid on mõistetavad kõigile.
voodi = säng
ämber = pang
jne.
Põhja-Eesti inimene ütleb, et kel saab kümne minuti pärast kolm, Lõuna. Eesti inimene aga, et kell on 10 minuti eest.
kolm.
Osa neist murdeväljendeist on mulle kui Põhja-Eesti inimesele täiesti vastuvõetamatud (see kellaaegade asi), kuid osa sõnu on sellised, millest ma saan suurepäraselt aru, lepin sellega kui teine neid kasutab, kuid ise kunagi ei kasuta (säng, pang).

Ingrid ütles ...

Minu 5.06 (Appi, missugune kellaaeg!) oli vastus anonüümsele. :-)

Flasher T ütles ...

Kunagi rääkis üks tuttav, et tema ülemus kasutas kogu aeg lauset, mis oli kolmesõnaline, ja kõik kolm sõna erinevast keelest võetud, ükski mitte eesti oma. :) Lauseks siis sarnane telefonihüvastijätt "Tšau, okei, davai".

Murdesõnadest meeldis ühe lõunameelse sõbra poolt kasutatav "muhe".

Anonüümne ütles ...

Isiklikud tähelepanekud murdesõnadest, mida hiljuti täiesti tavaliste inimeste kõnekeeles olen märganud. Lõuna pool räägitakse nood, too, toda. Põhjas vastavalt need, see ja seda. Seega peaksid Tartus üsna palju kuulma seda noo kõneviisi. Lõunas kasutatakse palju sõna lämmi (soe) ja vilu (külm).

Mõned inimesed põhjapool ei tea, mis tähendab et lumi pakib (hakkab niipalju kokku, et saab memme teha :))

Katriin ütles ...

Hästi lõunaeestilik väljend on "too" - see ajab tallinlasi naerma. See tähendab kellelegi või millelegi näitamist, viitamist: "vaata, too tüdruk seal on Britney Spearsi nägu".
Mõnel puhul on tähendus erinev.
Saarlaste "kastrul" on Lõuna-Eestis "kopsik" (pikka varrega veenõu). Lõuna-Eestis tuntakse kastruli nime all keedupotti (tavaline kahe sangaga pott).
Hiidlased jagavad inimesi hiidlasteks ja mittehiidlasteks selle järgi, kes ütleb "ei ole" ja kes ütleb "pole". Hiidlased ise ei kasutavat kunagi sõna "pole".
Jne.
Rõõmsat avastamist!

Ülle ütles ...

Erinevusi esineb ka lõuna-eesti murretes, nt kui kolisin koduselt Mulgimaalt Tartusse, siis kuulasin v66rastusega s6nu :too (see), kuna (kunas), pürst (hari),jne.
Mulgimaal öeldakse roosamanna ja soust, Tallinna kandis peenutsevalt mannavaht ja kaste.

Eppppp ütles ...

Mantel ja palitu olid ka sedasorti sõnad, aga ma ei mäleta, kumb oli lõunas ja kumb põhjas? Mina kasutan mõlemalt ;)

Spikker Tallinnas ja puks Tartus?

Flasher T ütles ...

Mõned inimesed põhjapool ei tea, mis tähendab et lumi pakib

Ahsoo, siit tulebki siis see "pakane", mis praegu nimisõnana enamasti kasutusel. :)

Veel üks minu poolt tähele pandud erinevus - kui lõunas räägitaks taastatud autorehvidest, siis põhjas kindlasti on nad protekteeritud.

KK ütles ...

Häälduse koha pealt - kas pole nii, et Põhja-Eestis ja Lõuna-Eestis hääldatakse erinevalt sõna "sünnipäev" - Tartus pigem nii, et "p" asemel võiks olla ka "b", aga Põhja-Eestis rõhutatakse vahel sõna keskel tugevat "p".

rakamon ütles ...

Proovi seda:

Õga külm mõtsaeläjile ja tsirgokõisilõ liiga tii-i. Nuu eläjä ja tsirgu, kiä mi kanti elämä jääse, omma külmäga är harinu. A neo eläjä, kiä olõ-i talvõs süvvä kogonu, a siski mi kandih elässe, omma talvõunõh, näütuses siil ja kahr,» kõnõlõs Orava mõtskunna ülemb Sepä Andres külmä mõost mõtsarahvalõ

Võrukeste Uma Lehest

Anonüümne ütles ...

Ma olen Tartu lähedalt ja meil räägitakse alati, et (midagi) läks puru, mitte katki.

v. ütles ...

Mina olen saarlane ja kopsik on minu jaoks alati see varrega veenõu olnud, mitte kastrul...:-S

Veel räägin ma "mo" ja "so" minu ja sinu asemel. Räägin aeglasemalt ja rõhukamalt ja õ-tähte ei tunne.

Sõnadest loomulikult klassikaline "runntuhlis" (koorega keedetud kartul). Aga rohkem ei tulegi praegu meelde - kui meenub, siis lisan...

oliver ütles ...

Hüva, kirjutaks siis ka midagi.

See "põhja lõuna lääne või ida murre?" küsimus oli tähtis umbes 100 aastat tagasi. Hetkel kasutab enamus inimesi parimaid osi kõigist murretest (erandid on võru ja seto keel/murre)

Selles on põhiliselt "süüdi" koos rahvusliku ärkamisega sündinud ajakirjandus ja tihedam koostöö eri regioonide vahel.
Loomulikult on ka praegu selliseid sõnu, mida kasutatakse ühes kohas ROHKEM kui teises, aga midagi kirja pannes valime kõhklemata selliseid sünonüüme (sest sõnakordused on saatanast!!!), mida veel sadakond aastat tagasi selles konkreetses regioonis isegi ei teatud.

Jutu mõte: su õpetaja ajas sulle jama

Estonia visitor ütles ...

You know, Giustino, I've only taken about 7.5 hours of Estonian language in my life and I understood 95% of what you wrote. Maybe it's easier to comprehend someone when it's a second language for him too, rather than a native speaker, if only because you don't get slang and expressions.

Well, I ASSUME I understood it: you used to listen to a word your wife often used on the phone, you used it yourself in class, your teacher promptly told you this is a Finnish word, but you reckon this misunderstanding is because your wife and the teacher are from different parts of Estonia with different word usage. Kas ma olen tubli or what? Or am I completely mistaken?

liis ütles ...

tundub ideaalne koht ühe küsimuse esitamiseks,
nimelt: kas pükstel on harilikult sääred või harud? :)
(minu pükstel on eluaeg harud olnud (äkki see on mingi läänemaa kiiks?) , aga mu elukaaslane väidab, et nii ei räägita, pükstel olla ikka sääred...)
:)

Andres ütles ...

Well, Eesti Keele Instituut Approves (tm)

http://www.eki.ee/dict/qs2006/index.cgi?Q=h%C3%BCva&F=M&O=0&E=0

Janek ütles ...

Lõuna-Eestis räägitav sarnaneb rohkem Soome keelega, kui too ametlik kirjakeel. Tegelikult meeldib mulle väga näiteks laste kohta öelda latsed või latsekesed. :)

Giustino ütles ...

Kas ma olen tubli or what? Or am I completely mistaken?

Muidugi sa oled tubli, ja hea tõlk ka.

AR ütles ...

Braavo !!

Kui kaua Sa siis seda keelt õppisid?

Ja mis Sa hindad, palju sõnu Sa näiteks tead?

notsu ütles ...

Aga üks Tartu inimene ütles mulle, et 'latskesed ' tähendab tartu keeles 'tüdrukud' (mitte 'lapsed') ja poiste kohta öeldakse 'poiskesed'.

Flasher t, kui on pakane, siis lumi *ei* paki. Lumi "pakib" siis, kui on sula.

Tartus öeldakse "ei teha", kirjakeeles "ei tehta" (is not done).
Lõunas "pürst", põhjas "hari" (brush). Lõunas "väits", põhjas "nuga" (knife), lõunas "peni" või "pini" või "pin'", põhjas "koer" (dog),
lõunas "veli", põhjas "vend" (brother).

Võru keele sõna "nilbe" tähendab Põhja-Eesti kirjakeeles "libe":D, (slippery) aga seda ma küll ei tea, mida võrukesed siis ütlevad, kui nad mõtlevad põhjaeesti tähenduses "nilbe" (obscene).

Piimaga on vist nii, et Lääne-Eestis võib piim olla "müre" ja Ida-Eestis "tilgastanud" (siis, kui ta enam rõõsk ei ole, aga hapu ka veel mitte), või on sellega mingi muu geograafia?

Aa, ja mõnel pool öeldakse "pane tuli kustu", mõnel pool "lase tuli ära", mõnel pool "lase tuli surnuks" ja mõned ütlevad igavalt "kustuta tuli ära" (switch the light off).

Andres ütles ...

Mõndasid sõnu, mida teie lõunaeestlastele omistate, olen mina ka oma vanaema suust kuulnud ja tema on hoopis rannikuäärne virulane. Võib-olla on põhjaeestlased hoopis rohkem kaasaminejad ja võtavad uusi asju (kirjakeel) kiiremini omaks. Lihtsalt teooria.

Matis ütles ...

tallinna "garderoob" on tartus "rõivistu" näiteks!

space_maze ütles ...

Ma arvan, et on palju sõna, mis tavalises Eestis on "ea"-ga, milles lõuna-Eesti kõnekeeles on "ää" - mõnikord nagu Soome keeles.

pea (tavaline Eesti) <-> pää (lõuna-Eesti ja Soome)

Saaremaa: sõnad ma ei tunne, aga hääldus on teine - saarlastel ei ole "õ"-hääl. Nad ütlevad selle asemel "ö" - pane tähele Saaremaa Viini reklaamidele.

öigus (õigus)
öunamahl (õunamahl)
öde (õde)

jne...

notsu ütles ...

See nn tavalise eesti '-ea' on pärit üsna piiratud alalt - enam-vähem vist põhja-eesti keskmurre. Muudes murretes - olgu põhjast või lõunast - on muud variandid - enamikus '-ää', mõnes '-ia' (pia, ia vrd pea, hea)

Aga rannikumurde kohta käib mingi klatš, et need olevat üldse soomlased, kes eesti keele peale üle läksid, nii et see võiks seletada mõnd soome- (sõnavara mõttes ka lõunaeesti-)-pärasust.

leheneeger ütles ...

Mu põhjaeestlasest emakeele õpetaja oli mulgikeelse sõna "vigel" väga imestunud. Tema teadis ainult sõna "hang". Ma pidin talle pilti näitama, et ta aru saaks, millest jutt on.

Andres ütles ...

Mis see "vigel" on siis? Lumehang, või tööriist heina tõstmiseks?

Estonia in World Media ütles ...

see on päris hea näide sellest, et asjad ei ole sellised nagu paistavad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5-UHAIgzA

notsu ütles ...

Heh-heh... vigel on heinatõstmise hark jah.

Sodi ütles ...

Notsu: jäta randlased rahule! :)) Õige pohiranna murre, tõsi küll, ei tunnistanud ka tihtipeale õ-d, ja selle asemel võis esineda ka o, mitte ainult ö. Soomepärasusele lisaks võiks sealsest keelest ehk ka rootsipärasust tuvastada, sest mitmel pool on inimeste perekonnanimed -ström-lõpulised.
Siia juurde üks randlaste anekdoot: Üks randlane räägib teisele, et pani pojale nimeks Paul. Teine küsib naljatades vastu, et kas vanast peast on ta siis Köve vöi?
[tõlge: paul = pael; köve = köis]

notsu ütles ...

Ma pidasin silmas ainult põhjarannikut, läänerannikul on teised sotid.
Aga ega ma "soomlane" siis paha pärast öelnud... jumala eest, ma tunnen üht põhjrandlast ja tema küll pole selle peale solvunud ;) ja eks seal ole rohkemgi soomepärasusi kui puuduvad õ-d. Võta näiteks kaks väldet kolme asemel või seesama -au-diftong -ae-asemel. Miskised morfoloogilised iseärasused pidid ka olema, aga ei mäleta. Teine seletus soomlaste immigratsiooni asemel on lihtsalt hirmus tihedad ülemerekontaktid.

Seda juttu on Pajusalu rääkinud ja Viitso ka, kui ma õigesti mäletan, nii et päris ise ma seda nüüd ka välja ei mõelnud.

Anonüümne ütles ...

kurat - kurask - devil

triin ütles ...

siin on tore arutelu. Mu mees (Põhja-Eestist) ei mõista kui ma ütlen luipu.
Aga veel üks sõna, millest mõned aru ei saa on vints. Mind see üllatab, sestap mõtlesin, et see ka äkki mingi paikkondlik sõna? Äkki keegi teab?

piret ütles ...

Minu, neljat põlve tallinlase emakeel on kirjakeel ja Tartusse ülikooli minnes hämmastas mind see, et Tartu poisid kandsid kuube. Tallinnas olid kõigil ikka pintsakud;)

notsu ütles ...

Mis see "luipu" tähendab, googeldamise põhjal võiks arvata, et 'viltu'? või 'kaldus' või 'längus'.

triin ütles ...

jah ongi viltu, kaldus.
Ja mu isa ütleb nt. alati kardulad ja kartulid tundub mulle lausa vale. Eks koolis olen õppinud ja vahel suudan õieti kasutada, aga kardulad tundub ikka õigem.

triin ütles ...

luipu on vist mulgimaalt või pärnu kandist?

margus ütles ...

saarlaste kohta niipalju, et ei ole päris õige öelda, et õ häälikut ei kasutata. tegelikult on saarlastel õ ö-le väga lähedane ja saarlased ise teevad vahet, teised enamasti mitte. sõrulastel pidi õ häälik olema veel isemoodi kuidagi pehme, täpselt ei tea, kuigi suvekodu on sõrves. ja niipalju kui mul on saarlase aktsent (või pigem mitte), on seda mandril peetud eksklusiivseks ja lahedaks eripäraks.

Anna-Liisa ütles ...

kõik see eri piirkondade keelekasutus pidas paika kunagi kaugemas ajaloos. praegu on palju lõuna-eestlasi kolinud põhja ja vastupidi, pärnu kandist on mindud virumaale ja võrust saaremaale, kõik keelerinevused on omavahel segunenud ja praegu väita, et vot seda või seda sõna kasutatakse ainult lõuna-eestis, seda põhjas ja seda saartel - see ei pea paika enam.
mu vanaisa oli saarlane, aga sõna "kastrul" ei kasutanud tema üleüldse, vanaema, kes oli pärit ida-virumaalt, ütles jällegi veenõu kohta "kopsik". sõna "kastrul" kasutab mu kasuvanaema, kes on pärit võrumaalt, ja tema keeles on kastrul kõige harilikum pott.

ainult seda täheldan mina veel küll, et siin lõunas öeldakse "too", mitte "see".
ja noh, need säänsed ja siuksed ja ... aga jällegi ... ka tallinnas elab inimesi, kes nii räägivad.

Anna-Liisa ütles ...

veel sedagi, et ma olen elupõline tartlane, aga garderoobi pole rõivistuks küll kunagi nimetanud :)

Estonia visitor ütles ...

"Braavo !!

Kui kaua Sa siis seda keelt õppisid?

Ja mis Sa hindad, palju sõnu Sa näiteks tead?" - ar

Kas sa raagisid mulle? Aitäh. Ma õppisin seda keelt ainult seitse, kaheksa tunnid (?). Aga ma oli estimaal kaheksa kuud, ma vaatsin (sp?) tv ja ma kuulsin inglise keelt aga ma loesin (?) eesti tõlkid.

Excuse the mistakes! 8 hrs of Estonian language class doesn't make you fluent! But Giustino is very good. However I see he went very quiet when everybody started writing long posts in Estonian! ;-)

If I had to guess how many words I know.... 500 - 1000? Ma ei tea! It's hard to guess because sometimes you can guess words you don't know if you read the whole sentence and think about it. How many words do you need to know to pass the language test?

The interesting thing is a lot (I mean a LOT!!!!) of Estonians I met were amazed I knew so much in a few months, and used this as an example to complain about "certain" people who had been there years and couldn't even say half that much...
While I'm not a big fan of complaining about minorities, I have to say there IS an issue is some jackass like myself can come for a few months and not take any estonian lessons or do anything else constructive, and still pick up more of the language than people who have been there years...

space_maze ütles ...

I had much the same experiences that estonia visitor had.

"Aga sa räägid NIIIIIIII hästi eesti keelt. Küll parem kui inimesed, kes elavad kõik elu siin!" - just with better grammar, of course ;)

I'm not much of a fan of the bitching either. I hate the attitudes people here in Austria have towards foreigners that might have a hint of an accent.

But something is wrong when I can be in Estonia for a few weeks .. and can then end up being in a conversation with someone that's lived in Estonia all his/her life, and can't hold my level of Estonian, yes.

As for how many Estonian words people know: gah, there are so many! ;-) .. there doesn't seem to be a limit to the bulk of words there is - it's quite stunning, for a language so "small".

I've been told that Estonians have this ability to mutually understand spontaneously invented words - that if one Estonian invents a random word, trying to describe a situation, others will be able to follow. This is one skill I have not aquired yet, so I cannot say if it's really true :-D

Andres ütles ...

I've been told that Estonians have this ability to mutually understand spontaneously invented words - that if one Estonian invents a random word, trying to describe a situation, others will be able to follow. This is one skill I have not aquired yet, so I cannot say if it's really true :-D
I think this happens in any language and it's called 'slang'. I often can't understand English people in chat rooms either although they seem to make sense to eachother. The only way you can master slang is by living in the language environment imo.

notsu ütles ...

I wonder if we sometimes spontaneously do invent onomatopoetic words too (words like "splash" or "bang"). There is a huge amount of onomatopoea in all Finno-Ugrian languages around the Baltic sea (except for the Saame) and linguists are helpless in explaining why, as there is nothing like that in neighbouring Indo-European languages, neither in more distant Finno-Ugrian languages. Some people speculate that our ancestors got such a shock when they saw and hear the sea that they felt they should give a separate name to each sound they hear. Plärts. Pauh. Sah. Sulps. Mull-mull.

space_maze ütles ...

Yeah .. onomatopoetic words is what I meant, not slang.

I really noticed how many Estonian has there when reading "Mõmmi aabits" - my first Estonian book! :D - last year. So many different ways water can flow, drip, or whatever.

I was told that if you in Estonian spontanously base a word on what something sounds like, it won't seem unusual. If I was to do the same in English - "My cat is pyuing in the other room" - it would be quite strange.

notsu ütles ...

But there is a lot of "official" onomatopoea around as well, not only the spontaneous kind.

Giustino ütles ...

Excuse the mistakes! 8 hrs of Estonian language class doesn't make you fluent! But Giustino is very good. However I see he went very quiet when everybody started writing long posts in Estonian!

Juhtub et ma ei tea need sõnad mis on ainult pärit lõuna eestist, või saaremaalt. Siis mul ei ole midagi öelda!

But yes, I've had a hard time wading through these posts. One interesting word is "hoopis" and its cousin "hoopiski" - which both mean "actually" or "really" - I think. I could be wrong.

Näiteks:

Võibolla pahad on hoopis head!

The "gi" ending is a little weird. I think it just adds emphasis to words. Like "on" and "ongi."

Another funny word is "ju." It's another emphasis word. I have no idea where to put this. I would put it in a sentence like so:

"Toomas on ju hea mees" but that's probably incorrect. It just randomly shows up.

Giustino ütles ...

I'm not much of a fan of the bitching either. I hate the attitudes people here in Austria have towards foreigners that might have a hint of an accent.

But something is wrong when I can be in Estonia for a few weeks .. and can then end up being in a conversation with someone that's lived in Estonia all his/her life, and can't hold my level of Estonian, yes.


Someone should do a study on the phenomenon of not learning a language, because something like that can only be accomplished on purpose.

It's amazing how someone can ignore a language environment. I mean you live in a place where most people speak one language, you go to shop, all the food names are in that language, you hear music on the radio - it's in that language. But I ask you if something is "tasuta" which is this very basic advertising word, and I get blank stares. What's up with that?

But Estonians are also enablers. They too gladly switch into a foreign language, even if you speak to them in Estonian. They also sometimes treat Russian-speakers like they are handicapped, like "Oh well, they'll just never learn, so why bother" And so the situation perpetuates itself.

I should add that most young people I know in Estonia are fluent in this language. I am referencing only *some* individuals I have met or done business with, not all people of a certain ethnicity. Most young native Russian speakers I have met can speak Estonian better than I probably will ever be able to do.

Anonüümne ütles ...

you guys gonna heat me for that...i am in estonia since couple fo years...i tried to learn estonia, took classes in language schools as well as privat lessons...but it didn't work out...my estonian is still poor...dont blame me, not everybody can learn a language that easy...i mean, i am not the dunbest person either, at least i could manage to get two master degrees, lived in several countries before, well, there I always survived with english as well as here in eestonia...i also noticed, here in tallinn are many expats who live since many years here, working in senior management positions of prestigiuos companies and do not speak estonian...because its not necessary...english is business language...news are in english as well and so are most of the bureaucratic things to manage too...so...i dont wanna become an estonian, i just gonna stay here for few more years and go afterwards somewhere else...

Oudekki ütles ...

"Toomas on ju hea mees" is completely right. But "ju" is more questionable emphasis word than "-gi". You can put them whereever, depends on what you want to say.

"Toomas ongi hea mees" - It appears that Toomas is a good man

"Toomas on ju hea mees" - Toomas is a good man, isn't he?

or

Toomas ju on hea mees - I've always known that Toomas is a good man

Toomaski on hea mees - Even Toomas is a good man.

And so on and so on :)

Giustino ütles ...

i also noticed, here in tallinn are many expats who live since many years here, working in senior management positions of prestigiuos companies and do not speak estonian...because its not necessary...

Well, the difference for me is that my wife's family speaks only Estonian. Nobody ever gave me any breaks when I went to their homes, it was just expected that I would learn the language. My wife's grandparents speak to me in Estonian. What would I do? Just sit there and stare back at them while they tried to ask me a question?

And I am still learning it. I am by no means fluent. But me not learning it is just not an option. I would be like a baby, totally reliant on my wife as a translator.
And I'd feel sort of arrogant.

I think it's possible to function in Tallinn, where there are a lot of foreigners all the time, in English. But when you are a regular visitor to Tartumaa and Viljandimaa, then that option doesn't exist.

space_maze ütles ...

Having been in Tallinn during my stay in Estonia, I could have well survived with English only - and I did actually end up speaking more Estonian with Russians in public than with Estonians, as Estonians kept switching into English - even when I did not want them too, gah!

But it just seemed daft to me not to learn. Especially as my then-girlfriend's mother did not speak any English, and it seemed quite daft to be living in the same flat with a person I'm not even trying to learn to communicate with.

I know that some people will have a harder time to learn a language than others. But, especially if you've been exposed to a language from your earliest youth on, it is a bit strange for people to not have picked it up.

Ironically, I've experienced it in reverse too - my then-girlfriend lives in Lasnamäe, the most Russian of Tallinn districs. She grew up in Põhja-Tallinn, another Russian district.

She's a language genius, basically, and fluent in more languages than I can count. Russian is not one of them, though, her Russian does not go too far beyond "Spasibo".

Estonia visitor ütles ...

""Aga sa räägid NIIIIIIII hästi eesti keelt. Küll parem kui inimesed, kes elavad kõik elu siin!" - just with better grammar, of course ;)"

LOL! This is EXACTLY the kind of comment I often heard! :-D

"But Estonians are also enablers. They too gladly switch into a foreign language, even if you speak to them in Estonian".

This is very true. Sometimes I feel like the girl in the shop is about to roll her eyes in exasperation when I stumble through my request in Estonian.

"Someone should do a study on the phenomenon of not learning a language, because something like that can only be accomplished on purpose."

Yes, there IS an element of, "Damned if I'm going to learn this pissant language" mentality. I do remember asking some fifty year old guy, in my bulls**t-level Estonian, "Ma tahan minne kristina keskuses, kus on peatus palun?" which may not be perfect but understandable. The answer? "Ya ne panimayu!" Got the information out of him in Russian, but for the first time I really started to understand what my Estonian friends wer talking about, I always assumed they were exaggerating.

Estonia visitor ütles ...

"i am in estonia since couple fo years...i tried to learn estonia, took classes in language schools as well as privat lessons...but it didn't work out...my estonian is still poor...dont blame me, not everybody can learn a language that easy..."

Fair enough. At least you TRIED!

You are not a native speaker of English, right? You see, as I said in my post earlier, a lot of my learning came from watching TV programmes in English, but at the same time reading the subtitles in Estonian. I suppose if I had to concentrate on listening to English if it wasn't my first language, while trying to read another language at the same time, it would have been much harder for me to learn...

Estonia visitor ütles ...

Watching the A-team repeats in Estonia was always fun. Mr T: "Ma ei taha minne lennukisse!" (or something like that).

Giustino ütles ...

Yes, there IS an element of, "Damned if I'm going to learn this pissant language" mentality. I do remember asking some fifty year old guy, in my bulls**t-level Estonian

The real life comedy would happen when we would have some sort of Tallinn service come to our apartment and my wife would be away.

So it would be me and the Russian-speaking electrician and his partner, with him asking me where the electrical outlet should go in Russian, and me responding in basic Estonian.

These guys didn't believe that I couldn't speak Russian. I couldn't understand what they were saying, but there was a lot of shrugging of the shoulders and the word "Russkie" being uttered in my direction.

Finally, the electrician just wrote his number on a piece of paper and said "helista" and left.

I have a hard time figuring out who is being the asshole in these situations. Am I the asshole because I haven't learned Estonian AND Russian to get by in Estonia? Is he the asshole because he's lived his whole life in a country where ~70 percent of the people speak Estonian but he can't? Would I have been a bigger asshole if I had tried English? It's a strange scenario. Being a foreigner, you really don't want to be the asshole, as I am sure you'll agree.

Estonia visitor ütles ...

I had a similar situation when the guy from Elion came by to fit the internet connection while my girlfriend was at work. So I'm doing the "ei seal, siin" bit, and he's nodding, then he goes on the phone and speaks Russian (which I speak better than Estonian - don't hate me!) so I'm getting ready to communicate with him in Russian, when he turns around and says, in passable English "Working now. Sign please."

VERY confusing sometimes!

Estonia visitor ütles ...

"Is he the asshole because he's lived his whole life in a country where ~70 percent of the people speak Estonian but he can't?"

To be fair, part of this is down to what you said about "enabling". Given that a large part of the population, especially the elder part, CAN speak Russian as a second language, its probably less hassle for them just to instruct the guy in Russian and get the process over with as quickly as possible rather than try to painfully muddle along in Estonian. I've seen my girlfriend do that in similar situations, whereas in no other circumstances does she attempt to speak Russian. So to a certain extent it is understandable. It's just easier for all parties.

This xmas I went with my girlfriend to Rakvere and spent xmas eve at one of her friends' mother's house. The mother had a partner, who I went outside to have a cigarette with. When he sussed out that my Estonian was negligible for conversational purposes and that my Russian was better, he quite unconsciously switched to Russian and we had a chat about the weather, his new car, jobs in Finland etc. I'm pretty sure if he could speak English he would have automatically switched to that. It comes down to what's easiest a lot of times.

With Russian as a second language dropping in Estonia, the situation will change... you'll probably have a lot of communication between the parties in English!!

Giustino ütles ...

(which I speak better than Estonian - don't hate me!)

You've betrayed us all. ;-)

space_maze ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Giustino ütles ...

With Russian as a second language dropping in Estonia, the situation will change... you'll probably have a lot of communication between the parties in English!!

Fuck that! I didn't move to Estonia to speak English everyday. Speaking the foreign language is one of the perks of living in another country, along of course with the beautiful architecture, charming women, plentiful alcohol et cetera.

Even when I went to Scotland, I made sure to watch a little Gaelic TV. :)

space_maze ütles ...

With Russian as a second language dropping in Estonia, the situation will change... you'll probably have a lot of communication between the parties in English!!

Or Finnish, even, in Tallinn. Which would be especially weird. I have gathered that some Russians in Tallinn speak Finnish better than Estonian - as in the tourism sector, Finnish is more useful than Estonian.

But mostly, I do think this is a temporary issue. Young Estonians just don't know enough Russian for things Ida-Virumaa at least.

Estonia visitor ütles ...

"Or Finnish, even, in Tallinn."

I'm not sure about this. If this was going to happen, it would have happened in the 90's, when Finns made up the majority of foreign tourists. Now you've got a lot of tourists coming from different countries, and English is becoming the default language in these situations.

I'm pretty sure, though, that the old Russians in the Centraal Market speak some Finnish, you always see busloads of Finnish tourists strolling through buying antiques and books. They must have to communicate/haggle.

In Ida Viruuma the younger people who work in the tourism industry speak Estonian, not great, but they do. We went to Narva and Narva-Joesuu last summer and this was the case. However they spoke VERY good English!

Estonia visitor ütles ...

"Even when I went to Scotland, I made sure to watch a little Gaelic TV. :)"

I read an article recently where a reporter tried to travel through Ireland speaking only Gaelic... not only did he find it difficult to be understood, but on a couple of occasions he was even threatened or thrown out of pubs because they reckoned he was trying to be "smart"...

notsu ütles ...

Some remarks about "ju" and "-gi/-ki".
It depends a lot of context. For example:

"Miks sa Toomaselt ei küsinud? Toomas on ju hea mees." (Why didn't you ask Toomas? Toomas is a good man, after all.)

or
"- Kas Toomas andis selle sulle niisama?
- Nojah, Toomas ongi hea mees"
(-Did Toomas give it to you for nothing?
-Yes, well, Toomas IS a good man)

In latter case I can imagine "Nojah, Toomas ongi ju hea mees" as well (Yes, well, Toomas IS a good man, after all).

Giustino ütles ...

I read an article recently where a reporter tried to travel through Ireland speaking only Gaelic... not only did he find it difficult to be understood, but on a couple of occasions he was even threatened or thrown out of pubs because they reckoned he was trying to be "smart"...

That's too bad. It's a beautiful language, although the 'spelling versus pronunciation' issue exists (as in French).

Estonia visitor ütles ...

Yeah but English isn't that phonetic or consistent either.

Off the top of my head look at how many variations you get with the letter A in the following sentence:

"It wAs Again the lAst blAck tAble" -
and no clues as to pronunciation!

space_maze ütles ...

I find English a lot "worse" than French there. French has this utterly crazy system, but at least there is some consitency to it. While in English .. if you've never heard a word spoken, there's just no way to know.

like "live"

"I live in this house"
"This is a live broadcast"

"bow"

"bow and arrow"
"the ship's bow"

Celtic languages are even nuttier there though, from what I've gathered. I was told by an Irish that the Irish name for Dublin - "Baile Átha Cliath" - is pronounced something like "Beili Asthor" - something like that at least. So far off it that, had I not known, I would NEVER have guessed that it was one and the same term.

Anonüümne ütles ...

saare pealt olen ja paar asja, millest mandri-eestlased pole aru saanud, aga mis minu körva jaoks igapäevased asjad. esiteks, nagi. siin saare peal kasutatakse neid selles tähenduses, mis teistele on pesulöksud. olen kokku puutunud ka olukorraga, kus mandrikad ei saaa aru, kui keegi ütleb: "soki-pöisel käimine" ehk siis käib sokkides.
ja veel üks pisike näide et siin vöib ka lausa igal külal olla oma söna, mida naaberküla rahvas eriti ei tea - mu isa rääkis et kui ta ämm käskis tal ruttu anda rullu sealt ämbrist, siis ega ta ikka aru ei saanud, kuigi elasid nad ca 5 km kaugusel eri külades. tuli siis välja et tegu oli kopsikuga ehk siis asjandusega, millega ämbrist kõige mugavam vett on vötta, kuidasiganes seda keegi ka ei nimeta. just my two cents.

Anonüümne ütles ...

"tilgastanud" ütleb ka minu vanaisa piima kohta, aga tema on hoopis Pärnumaa mees. "vigel" oli minu teada ka Võrumaa "hargi" nimi.

Põhja-Tallinn... I don't think this is a russian district!

Minni ütles ...

Esiteks tahaks kohe väga kiita seda, et keegi tõepoolest ka tahab eesti keelt õppida.
Kuna olen ka ise Saaremaalt, võin siia anda päris kena loetelu ainult saarlaste sõnu.

Leiges - kaalikas. This yellow vergetable.
Vilu - külm/vari (cold/shadow)
"Kena" ei ole mitte ainul "ilus" vaid ka "maitsev", "hea" - näiteks Ta on nii kena inimene, see on nii kena supp.
osama - lööma, pihta saama
jooniga - otse (ta läks ühe jooniga edasi - ta läks otse edasi)
sugema - kammima
märg - mitte ainlult "wet" aga ka "jook" (drink)
vatugad/vatukat - paksud riided
jänt (one my special favourites) - naljakas (funny, weird)
kihu - tahtmine
lahve - palju
pireke - natuke (mõlemad 2 eelkõige vedelikkude puhul)
pale - nägu
koost - lusikas
And my very favourite:
sokipöisel - sokkis (when you have only socks on and no shoes)


Wish you all good in learning this fu*ked up language we love ;)

Jarmo ütles ...

"Piä" or "piä" are common variants for "pää" in Eastern Finland. Also, the word "maa" can be "moa" or "mua" in the East. In Finnish, this is Eastern influence from Karelian, so I suppose this is the case in Estonian, too..

And "hüva" vs. "hea". I suppose during the last 1000 or 1500 years, the word has progressed this way in Northern Estonian? hüvä (just like nowadays in Veps and Finnish) -> hüä (can be found in some Finnish dialects) -> hiä (just like in Ingrian) -> hea...

Interesting...