I would say that the deportations not only destroyed lives in the sense that many of those who were deported died from disease, hunger and horrendous working conditions, not to mention execution. They destroyed the families of those who remained behind. And even if the person who survived the deportation managed to return to Estonia, he (or she) was often a shadow of the person he once was.
For Estonia's younger generations, the deportations are less tangible. But for the post-war generation, the memory of the broken families and broken people created by the actions of the Soviet state linger. I wonder sometimes how it is possible that Estonians, who can really be considered historical activists, like Mart Laar or Imbi Paju, are driven so passionately to tell the story of this period of history.
Then I remember that they were raised by those very people whose lives were destroyed by Soviet actions. And what a contrast it must have been to be a small Soviet child in the golden 1960s surrounded by adults who were not keen to talk about themselves or their childhoods or what had happened to their various relatives. Even for them it must have been hard to fathom a situation where they were woken up in the night and placed into a cattle car bound for Siberia.
I don't know what to tell my own children about the deportations. I had a hard time explaining to my eldest, now seven, that Estonia was at one time not free. She did not understand the concept of an Estonia that was not independent. How do I explain to her how people were rounded up and loaded into cattle cars? How do I even try to explain to her what the motive behind such actions was? As time grows between the present day and the collapse of the Soviet state, its ideology becomes even more far-fetched and preposterous. Its crimes are inexplicable.
83 kommentaari:
To an older kid, you can tell personal stories you've heard - but to small ones, I guess fairytales such as Brothers Lionheart or Lord of the Rings would be helpful. Dragons, evil kings etc.
My family story:
In 1949, a guy who was one of the deporters, lived in an apartment next to us. (He was easy to blackmail into it, having served under Germans). So when my grandma heard men gathering next door, she would take her kids and go hiding in a cave by the Pirita river. She shouldn't have much to fear - her husband fought on the Russian side in WWII - but she wasn't going to risk it. My dad was 3 years old then, his sister was a teenager. The former deporter continued to live next to us when I was around, we got along fine, he was a quiet fellow when sober, worked as a painter. He always got drunk on paydays and then turned into a roaring monster, there was a lot of screaming behind our kitchen wall. Thanks to this guy, I avoided alcohol until age 16 :) I only heard this story from my dad two years ago, I did not know before - all I knew was every old person I knew as a kid was a little crazy. It's probably called post-traumatic stress disorder.
Explain? You just don't. That is what you'll learn form older people. Or you do and then tell them to keep it to themselves. You want to protect them from being seen as nazi apologists or even holocaust deniers. It is rather dangerous to try to point what horrors were done to our people. We do not expect the world to understand such nuances. So we keep our secret language and our broken history to ourselves. It is a survival skill.
Plus, nobody really likes complainers anyway.
2 stories: My grandmother once told me that during the German occupation, this one German officer gave the family food. Without that food, they probably would have starved. When the Germans were about to move out, my grandmothers mother was asked to come to the police station one afternoon - she was never seen or heard from again. As a child, how do you rationalize these two wildly conflicting facts? Even as an adult?
My grandfathers family were deported to Siberia twice. The first time in June 1941. They were given an hour to pack and the only reason my grandfather wasn't taken along was that he was the youngest child and was out with the cattle. The whole family was sent. Somehow, during the war, they made their way back home only to be deported again in March 1949. The second time around they new what they were in for, so great-grandfather brought his carpentry-tools and great-grandmother brought the Singer sewing machine and they took all their gold. They were set out of the train in the middle of nowhere and by autumn they had a two-storey house and were the richest people in the village. Barter goes a long way. Deported for... being "rich", obviously. After Stalin died, most of the family made their way back to Estonia again but they made one more trip to Siberia. To buy out the remaining son.
Doris' story shows that "lives and families" were not necessarily destroyed despite the effort - with enough willpower and tons of luck, many of them came back far stronger than when they went in (which, of course, is bound to happen if we're talking about 12-year-old deportees like Lennart Meri).
(full disclosure, I don't know much of the subject, because my own immediate ancestors came out relatively lucky - a great-grandfather died in Siberia for being rich, an uncle of my mother was shot for being an officer in 1940, a 20-year-old cousin of my grandfather was killed in 1944 as a German conscript and her 16-year-old sister also died the same year. I discovered two last pieces of above information only a year ago while analyzing family tree - obviously not the things you would want to use to cheer up your children with.)
*his sister, of course, I always mess up with gender.
And what a contrast it must have been to be a small Soviet child in the golden 1960s surrounded by adults who were not keen to talk about themselves or their childhoods or what had happened to their various relatives.
While in early 50-s the kids were taught to fear even a sight of a Russian uniform, in golden 60-s the same kids were big fans of the Soviet Space Age meme, happily enlisted into the communist youth organization and didn't understand why their parents seemed to be quietly ironic about these things. Seems like "real history" lessons were postponed until the kid reaches university age, almost like an initiation rite into a secret cult (but irl of course nothing like that, because they would give you the article 58 for things like that)
My mother, who recently moved back to Estonia from the US, sent me this e-mail a few hours ago:
Yesterday was the 70th anniversary when Stalin ordered the deportation of 10,000 estonians to Siberia. The lists were compiled months in advance and included mostly successful businessmen, successful farmers, soldiers who fought against Russia during WWI, members of the national guard, leaders in the community, judges, lawyers, teachers etc., and all of their families. From our immediate family was my grandfather, uncle, aunt 8 months pregnant, and a toddler 1 1/2 years old. The round-up started in the early hours of June 14th, they were given 2 hours to pack 50 kgs per person, loaded unto trucks and then to railroad cattle cars (hole in the floor or bucket for toilet) for the multi day trip to Siberia. The men were separated from their families and sent to prison camps while the women and children sent to settle in remote areas of Siberia. We watched a very sobering documentary, which was filmed in Siberia last year with several men from Estonia who as young children ended up in this area. During the train trip to Siberia when people died they were just pushed out of the cattle car unto the area next to the rails with no burial. When arriving in Siberia the people were shipped on barges and distributed along a several hundred mile portion of a river. The area had some Russian collective farms along this route and here the women and children were left to live and work the farms. Only a working person received meager distribution of food if they filled their work quotas, which according to the men was almost immpossible especially for the weak and undernourished people. In a family of 5 the only able worker was the teenage girl, she was so sad that she could not get enough food for her mother and siblings. Of the 10,000 more than 4,600 died. The men in the documentray who survived were younger than 10 when they lost their siblings and mothers to starvation, they were the lucky ones, as orphans they were placed in a children's home there and received regular feeding. One of the men admitted that his mother who had no more food for them took her own life so he would be able to enter the children's home and survive. Hundreds of families died of starvation, as did my grandfather and the 2 young cousins. One of the men lost his mother when she secreted 2 handfuls of grain to bring home for food and received a sentence of 25 years in a prison camp, he never saw her again. Trading your possessions for food was necesary until there was nothing of value left to trade. The group re-visited the areas where they had lived and where their families were buried, hardly anyone lives there anymore - Stalin's plan to settle Siberia with peple from the Baltics was not a success. When Stalin died it was possible for the people to return home, still a few stayed there.
At the end of the film they ran the names of the people who had died enroute to Siberia, those in the prison camps and the settlers. Most of the very young died enroute or during the first year in Siberia. Saw my grandfather's and cousins' names. Sadly this was not the only deportation, in 1949 another 24,000 from Estonia were sent to Siberia, these were the rest of people that should have been on the original list and included my aunt and her 2 daughters Ulle & Helle that Erik met. Most people spent 8 - 15 years in Siberia before being able to come back to Estonia. I am not sure about Dad's father and how he managed, should ask Selma about that.
This has really touched me seeing and hearing about this in such detail and I felt you should also be aware of this injustice. What really made me angry yesterday, some of the Russians living here were asked about their feelings regarding the deportations - most had no feelings of sorrow for the people whose lives had been destroyed and one arrogant woman thought they should have deported more of them.
Until a happier time,
Love,
Mom
There you go Erik, that Russian woman who expressed her sincere feelings is surely an anti-fascist and otherwise upstanding and respectable citizen. So how do you argue with somebody like that? Especially when she will readily point to our veterans marching in SS uniforms. You just don't.
You suck it up and browbeat them.
There will never be peace, I tell you that.
Maybe 100 years will have to go by.
Keep the stories coming. They are most interesting.
Does anyone know if Rein Vare's diary has finally been published?
Liivimaa parimale ratsutajale. Jäta oma tobe nazi paranoia. 1941 aastal polnud mingit koostööd saksa okupatsioonivõimudega süütute naiste ja laste poolt. Erinevalt Sinust ei lähe tavaeestlasele mingi sovieti muti arvamus korda.
Liivimaa parim ratsutaja. Leave you stupid nazi paranoia. In june 1941 were weren`t any collaboration to germans, children and women were innocent. You are only one in Estonia who cares what some soviet baba thinks!
I had a hard time explaining to my eldest, now seven, that Estonia was at one time not free.
Isn't seven a bit early to start discussing political history with your child? Mine is eight, and has not yet been told that there once was a 'Second World War' and that the Netherlands were occupied.
I am also quite moved by the stories posted here. Thank you to every one who shared his/her own family history.
Personally I think 7 is too young. At that age children are hopefully unfamiliar with the idea that humans are assholes to one another for no good reason.
In time they will learn about East v. West, the occupation, the curtain etc. but don't expect them to relate to them in the same way as you or your wife does. The kids growing up today under the blue flag with stars luckily inhabit a better world. For them East Germany and the USSR is ancient history.
A new cousin was born to me yesterday and by the time she is old enough to comprehend the concept of terrorism vs. freedom fighters the idea that bombs went off in Northern Ireland on a daily basis and people went on hungry strike in prison will seem alien.
And she won't shed a tear like we did whilst watching footage of the British Monarch lay a wreath and bow at a monument to commemorate those who died fighting her forces for our freedom. She'll also (cognitively) miss the 100 anniversary of the 1916 Rising. Maybe it's a good thing, who knows...
My mother added the following in an e-mail last night:
(This occurred near Viljandi)
In case you do not make the connection to another happening. I was spending the summer with Ema on her family farm which is just a few miles fron Vanaisa's. That morning my Uncle Juku (mother's brother) was returning from the morning milk run to town and met the bus which was carrying my grandfather's family and most of the farmers from the village at the end of the drive to the farm. Having seen the gathering of people and the cattle cars at the station he knew what was happening and according to him the bus driver decided that they were so far behind schedule that there was no time to pick up more people and went on their way! Fate was very kind to us, even though I was only 5 the horror of that day will stay with me forever. Do not know if they ever came back for us, we headed for the woods and stayed there for almost a month.
Headbanger, you got it all ass backwards. It is not me who has the nazi paranoia. Maybe I was not clear enough. Oh, well. Just goes to show how much agner and confusion still lingers on. The entire country is permeated with this anger and vitriol. Then having clueless Russians living in the midst of it with the victims does not help. It is all too effed up. One thinks the other is the deporter and the othre thinks he is a nazi.
I mean, I am sick and tired of it all.
There is absolutely no reason to share this horror with my sweet sensitive 7 year old granddaughter. I am just simply amazed that you would even consider having a conversation on this topic, especially because of how often you have "cautioned" me about her sensitive nature and your concerns over her seeing violent television programs like Avatar & Harry Potter.
I truly mean no disrespect for what was clearly a horrific time in Estonian history but she, my granddaughter, doesn't need to go to sleep at night terrified that horrible people will come for her and her family. This is taking your adult interests to a very extreme level.
You were allowed a happy childhood where you felt loved and safe ...your daughter deserves the same.
maybe what you can talk about is the Singing Revolution? I as 4-5-6 at the time and while the atmosphere was certainly scary sometimes (I'd sneak to the living room late at night to see my parents looking at the news, and I'd listen to all the discussions one way or the other, all the hope and frustration and fear. I guess the most traumatizing it got was the time I saw the news bit -unedited- of when the Russian tanks rolled over some Lithuanian protesters.) I even remember being in the Balti Kett, although there were no tanks where I was, like you see in some of the newsreels. But overall the whole singing revolution story is much more uplifting, more friendly way of talking about the Soviet times. For kids. It's not the whole story but rather the happy ending :)
To Liivimaa parim ratsutaja. How old are you? How can be somebody so naive. Russians clueless, oh please, they know exactly what happened because their own families were deported and repressed in Russia 1920-1930.
To Liivimaa parim rautsutaja. Question. People who were deported 1941 were nazis, fashists and killers of jews? I grow up in Soviet Union and in history books was written that they were capitalist nationalist. So even Soviets did not see the connection.
In 1949 were deported farmers families. Any connection to nazis, fashists and jews? In Soviet books it was said that they helped forest brothers but it was one of these little mistakes what Stalin make.
But still jews were not mentioned.
So I lived till now with this knowledge. Suddenly 20 years after Soviet Union collapsed we have Liivimaa parim ratsutaja who thinks that deportation can`t be discussed beacuse of nazism, fashism and holocaust. Do you honestly think that older people are afraid of being called holocaust deniers:)They don`t know what it is:) All estonian guys were called fashists when served in Soviet army-does ANY of them cares:)
Isn't seven a bit early to start discussing political history with your child?
If the child asks a question, doesn't it warrant some kind of honest answer?
I think I knew a lot of things by the time I was seven, so much so that when we discussed WWII in school I referred to the Japanese as the "Japs" -- unaware that it wasn't the nicest way to refer to them. Someone had to whisper to me, "Japs isn't a nice word."
Why this woman said more estonians should deported is NOT holocaust, nazism or fashism.
She lost her position, Russians were master race in Soviet Union. Now nobody dont`t care of her, no Russia no Estonia thats why this bitterness.
I recommend to read Andrei Hvostov "Sillamäe passioon" chapter Saladused. It is very well written story how Russians understand their own deportation.
I don't have "Sillamäe passioon", Headbanger, but I'm curious. What does it say about the Russians, and how they dealt with their own family deportations?
Andrei Hvostov`s father was Russian from Siberian cossak family. Hes mother was Estonian.He lived in russian enviroment in Sillamäe. Maybe you can buy e-book.
More about "clueless" Russians and Soviets.
They know excatly what is deportation and genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Purges_and_deportations
http://www.faqs.org/minorities/USSR/Deported-Nationalities.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_the_Soviet_Union
I would say better than Estonians.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2005343/Russian-soldiers-raped-wife-ex-German-chancellor-Helmut-Kohl-12.html
By the logic of Liivimaa parim ratsutaja she must keep this in silence forever because she might be seen as nazi apologist and holocaust denier.
Headbanger,
there is no need to scold Liivimaa parim ratsutaja over his pessimism just because you don't get his angle.
Liivimaa viimne ratsutaja is person who have no life experience and no knowledge of history.
People who were deported don`t care of hes protection, they don`t know word holocaust denier, their attitude to russian people is more relaxing than younger people, because lot of them grow up in russian enviroment. No russian comes to elderly former deportee to say nasty things beacuse she knows what she will get from there and she knows what she is one of them -"nasha". Somebody who is growing up in russian enviroment, somebody who speaks often accent free russian, have partly or full russian school education, knows character and traditions of russians. My friend is such person she will say openly rough things to russians but her sons are married to russians and she have several russian girlfriends. She is 1941 deportee as very small child. No haterate and no fear!
I know several former deportees who are quite russian friendly and tell how they like Siberian people and nature. At the same time they all hate totalitarism and soviet state.
I can understand that, Headbanger, because the experience of deportation was probably not simple -- not simply 'everything is lost', 'go to Siberia and die there', but other things as well. I can imagine deportees also met good people in Siberia, and learned to differentiate the people from the government. Ivan Petrov at the Baikal is not the same as Josif Stalin in Moscow. So I can understand deportees who are Russian-friendly but hate the Soviet state.
What I don't understand is why there are so many Russians (judging by the media coverage of Baltic deportations), in Russia and in the ex-Soviet states, who claim that 'it wasn't so bad' and that 'Estonians/Latvians/Lithuanians who complain are exaggerating' and so on. (I saw a clip at RussiaToday where a 'psychologist' was offering 'psychological explanations' and 'analyses' for this 'dysfunctional' behavior of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians, and wondering where their 'anti-Russian' -- note, not anti-Soviet: they say, anti-Russian -- feelings really come from.)
Who cares. Russia Today is state funded propaganda channel
Justin Says:
Re:Isn't seven a bit early to start discussing political history with your child?
If the child asks a question, doesn't it warrant some kind of honest answer?
Might your appropriate answer be ... A very long time ago the Russians came and took people from their homes in the middle of the night, they took the children too
out of 10,000 people less than half survived. The rest of them died, mostly the weak, the women and the children.
Would you like a glass of warm milk now before you go off to sleep sweetie.
I guess that Russian language teacher she likes so much isn't so likeable anymore.
Example: To the best of my knowledge the Nation Guard from the State of Connecticut never came here to New York and took away 10,000 Long Islanders, so I guess you probably don't quite have the gut level of understanding that the people have there...(and notice I didn't use the state of New Jersey in my example)... *a New York joke.
One more thing.
*Japs...who said that ?
@ Lingüista:
Innumerable Russians had similar experiences. Apparently they went through all this horror psychologically unscathed, that's why in their opinion Estonians exaggerate. Russians are, because of their history, among the most hard hearted peoples on the earth, they do not understand that these experiences can be more difficult to cope with for other, more civilised nations. Moreover, although they had similar experiences, for Estonians these atrocities have a different colour because they were inflicted upon them by an enemy nation, which adds an extra layer of tragedy.
My grandfather used to say Japs.
I didn't tell my daughter about the deportations. I talked to her about independence versus non-independence.
The Estonian-Russian dialogue over the deportations probably suffers from the main stumbling block in Estonian-Russian discourses on the past. That is the Russians still see Estonians as post-Soviet, while the Estonians see themselves as natural Europeans.
The Estonian response to the deportations is a European response. And Estonia wasn't an Axis country in 1941 when they occurred, so it is hard to lay the "you deserved it, because of what you did to the Jews" line on them (as is done with Germany).
Isn't it normal for a country to remember thousands of its citizens who died in tragic circumstances?
The search for blame, or rather justice, also seems quite European. Surely, if there was a crime, then justice can also be pursued.
The Soviet take is one of resignation and fatalism. The Soviets, and later post-Soviets, saw the state as some kind of vengeful God that could not be dealt with according to any natural or derived laws of man.
It is futile from that perspective to expect justice, or to see such "naturally" occurring calamities, such as mass deportation, as crimes for which justice could be sought.
Ultimately, it is very hard to detach Estonians from the mindset of post-Soviet Russia because their relationship to all other formerly Soviet nationalities and internal minorities is governed by this view of Russia as the center of some sort of microuniverse. To elevate Estonians to the status of natural Europeans would be to put Russia, the center of this universe, in the inferior position.
This is why perhaps the Russians do not mind when Finns commemorate their losses in the Second World War, during which time they were an Axis country, and yet feel the need to dictate Estonia's past to the Estonians. The leadership views the Finns as natural Europeans, but the Estonians as a post-Soviet nationality.
I think it is rather cowardly of the Russian leadership not to address the legacy of the deportations. If the Estonian president can go and sit in Red/Beautiful Square and watch a military parade on May 9, surely the Russian leadership can offer similar kaastunned when the anniversaries of the deportations come around.
One more point: never forget the manner in which the memory of the Holocaust has been used to strengthen the position of the Israeli state, both domestically and in foreign policy.
The concept of collective suffering strengthens national identity, the fear that "it could happen again" give small states clout when dealing with larger states that claim to pursue a moral foreign policy.
If the Estonian president can go and sit in Red/Beautiful Square and watch a military parade on May 9, surely the Russian leadership can offer similar kaastunned when the anniversaries of the deportations come around.
They don't even commemorate the Bolshevik atrocities against the Russians themselves, so why would they bother to care about those against other nations?
Giustino ütles...
My grandfather used to say Japs.
* of course,it was typical of men of his generation.. way before being PC was instituted.
I didn't tell my daughter about the deportations. I talked to her about independence versus non-independence.
* Perfect...
Giustino, since you are now in Viljandi, have you gone to the Viljandi Museum? If not, head on over and ask for my cousin, the Director, Jaak Pihlak. Tell him Erik Vainu, his cousin in the USA, sent you. Jaak is from my mothers side of the family (Pullerits).
They have an extensive library of items they have collected, including pictures, books journals and so much more. There you might find a way to better explain parts of Estonian History to your children.
Also, see if Jaak will tell you more about the Johan Laidoner Monument in Viljandi. Jaak was very involved in that Monument to his and my cousin.
http://muuseum.viljandimaa.ee/
"their relationship to all other formerly Soviet nationalities and internal minorities is governed by this view of Russia as the center of some sort of microuniverse"
It is indeed a peculiar world view to regard areas that you once, even remotely, controlled as some sort of property. The Soviet Union/Russia seems to have taken this tendency a step further than other states.
For example the Soviets used to send protest notes to the Danish government every time government ministers from other countries visited the island of Bornholm. As if their 1945-46 occupation of it had somehow turned it into a less sovereign part of Denmark and placed it in a "Soviet space".
For the record, they were ignored.
Justin,just go to library and lend a book Ilon Wikland "Pikk-pikk teekond".
@Temesta, @Giustino,
I understand the idea that Russians would see Government as some hurricane-Katrina-like force of nature that cannot be always expected to act morally and must simply be put up with, and that they might be irked by the idea that some people don't think like that.
But I sense something more than that. It seems to be a personal offense to the Russians (especially pro-government, pro-status-quo Russians) that others should complain about their deportation experiences while they themselves don't. It's as if these countries were saying they, the Russians, were guilty. It's as if they thought 'they're comparing us to Nazi Germany again!' or something like that.
I have the funny impression many Russians think ('feel' may be a better word) that if Estonians or any other post-Soviet ethnicities complain against Communist atrocities like the deportations, this is only a smokescreen for a hidden agenda, a thinly veiled attempt at 'demonizing Russia'. It feels to me (when I see some of their news clips, or when I talk to more nationalistic Russians) that there's some sort of soccer (or hockey? :-) mentality at work: their team is trying to score points off our team by exaggerating the meaning of these so-called 'criminal' deportations, while ignoring all the good things our team did for them when we were in charge -- the infra-structure, the factories we built, etc. etc. etc.
It's in the end a somewhat simplist attitude -- our gang yay, their gang boo, their gang is trying to hurt our gang (that's the meaning of all this whining about deportations), so we get angry. We can't let them win, now can we?
Since the Finns were never under direct Soviet control, and since they behaved like 'good' enemies (Finlandization), they get a free pass. So Halonen and Medvedev could exchange notes about their favorite rock bands, while Ilves and Vīķe-Freiberga got the cold treatment.
Lingüista ütles...
Since the Finns were never under direct Soviet control, and since they behaved like 'good' enemies (Finlandization), they get a free pass.
* In Russia's parental eyes you will always be their insolent runaway child.
Headbanger it is not me you need to argue with. It is not for the lack of experience, but for the abundance of it that makes me say the things I say. You go argue with russians, all 140 or whatever many millions of them and other people who are under the impression that we were and are nazis.
But remember - the more you argue that you are not, the more you prove that you are. So why don't you just drop it?
You are young, you are enthusiastic and optimistic. And I say it with respect, not to dismiss you. Go out there and change the world, that is all I can say. I'll give you the flag that I once had. Maybe you can make people notice it.
As for me, I have retired to making lazy cynical comments at the expense of the stupidity of mankind, safely removed from the skirmishes by anonymity and geography.
Thank God for the internet.
I am 49.
You care of opinion of communist nazis who kept people in concentration camps, killed several nations (as germans jews), occupied half of Europe, burned books. Or you want to say they din`t do that?
Could you please re-read what I have said and try to think more dynamically. I throw up my arms. Some people you just can't reach. What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Now, where have I said that? Wtf, man? Dude, you are off your rocker. I hope Russia Today does not get to interview you. They would have a field day with a naive like you.
Gosh.
Give me a break.
Lets make things clear : You said estonians must keep deportation to yourself because russians think we estonians are nazis. And you want to protect deported people. And it is DANGEROUS?! to point to horrors.
I said it is ABSURD because russians are red nazis and connection between deportation and nazism, holocaust and fascism don`t exist.
http://www.maaleht.ee/news/uudised/elu/juudi-kalmistul-avati-malestusmark-hukkunud-kuuditatutele.d?id=478033
Russians as red Nazis? Headbanger, my wife is Russian -- she isn't a red Nazi! Believe me, if she had any hidden swastikas or Nazi agenda, I would know! :-)
Russians are just prone to us-vs.-them mentality. That means Nazis can flourish among them -- if they can convince the others that "we're the same people". We're наши. And 'they' aren't. That's enough. :-)
After reading something like this:
"I said it is ABSURD because russians are red nazis and connection between deportation and nazism, holocaust and fascism don`t exist."
I just chuckle. If you were a here in America, Headbanger, I am sure you'd be Tea-bagger and a Republican. Hahah.
Liivimaa parim ratsutaja. Can you answer yes or no.
Nazism and communism are equal evil?
Yes.NO.
People who were deported in in 1941 and 1949 were nazis and involved in holocaust.
Yes.No
Russians don`t know anything about deportations.
Yes.No
Russians are very friendly towards jews?
Yes.No
Russians are very tolerant towards forigners.
Yes.NO
Russians/soviets commited genocide towards several nations of Soviet Union.
Yes.NO.
You speak russian?
Yes.No.
Russians/soviets burned books in 1940 in Estonia?
Yes.No.
Linguista, yes nashism! This is the word! Superiority towards other nations, haterate towards forigners, strong anti-jewish movement.
Of course I'll answer yes to most of these questions. Just curious, why would someone's ability to speak and understand russian be relevant here? Possible traitor, a spy, you suspect?
Are you more of a "patriot" that you do not know the language of your "enemy" or something?
Do you speak russian?
Heabanger, you are such a perfect example for those kind of childish natiaonalism which gives Estonia such a bad image in Western Europe. Most of my German friends either see Estonia either as paradise for neoliberal freaks or an accumulation of some backward village-nationalists who obviously have not realized that the cold war has ended long ago... You are free to chose which interpretation you like more. But what to expect from a country where some village-nazis seriously debate about building memorials for former SS fighters? btw: this is the image you and people of your kind have among educated German people, not among russian people.
what I also realize is the sharp contrast between nationalist freaks like you and the developments I can observe in Greece and Spain at the moment. there, people go on streets and places to claim their democratic rights at the moment. And in Estonia: nationalism, chauvinism, obedience and silence like on a graveyard. You know the difference? Many people in Spain and Greece are able to act and think for themselves while most Estonians still have learned nothing else than obidience, hatred and national chauvinism. So headbanger, you proud Estonian patriot, continue your chauvinist freakshow - the reputation of smalltown boy like you in civilized western European countries is ruined anyway. People like you just get what they deserve..As long as there are so many people like you outside in Estonia I would not bet a single cent for the future of your county.
Greetings from Berlin..
8:05 PM
I am not estonian nationalist. I speak good russian, I have russians in my extended family I am huge fan of russian culture. I don`t think estonian history is unique but part of East European history. But I am against nashism, and russian imperialism.
Greece!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007949/The-Big-Fat-Greek-Gravy-Train-A-special-investigation-EU-funded-culture-greed-tax-evasion-scandalous-waste.html
Sooooo civilized! And so well loved in civilized Western Europe:)
Another childish full of wrong information post as Liivimaa Parim Ratsutaja produces.
Now this will be me last post here. I will go to streets to protest and ask civil right to get pension in 50 and free flight in Estonian Air.
But I still don`t get why Spain and Greece protest-Germany will help them out anyway!
I speak Russian well, too, Headbanger, and I don't have any pro-Russian agenda or anything.
As for Moevenort: don't feel bad about what he says, he's just one of those guys who has a grudge against Estonia and has to voice it (or else his belly hurts...).
Moevenort, to your glee, I can only add, that the only thing we Estonians seem to dislike more than outsiders are fellow estonians. The obvious dislike of each other like the one you witness here between me and Headbanger, that is something that comes naturally to us. We seem to get this hostile disposition toward each other with mother's milk.
Or is it just that we are extremely poor communicators?
What ever it is, it is a dysfunction, but as bad as it is, it also keeps us clear from any cult of personality (except Savisaar).
So, rasutaja, if a well-meaning foreigner like me were to come to an Estonian in Estonia and say, 'hey, Eesti on väga ilus maa, ja Eesti keel on väga ilus keel', he'd just be ignored? :-|...
Linguista, no, we adore foreigners. That is why I pretend to be one myself every chance I get.
It is known as being a "juniper-yankee."
brave new world?
"Viljandis tähistatakse Hitleri armee tulemise aastapäeva "
"Homme kell 11 peetakse Saksa sõjaväe kalmistul mälestuskoosviibimine, sest möödub 70 aastat päevast, mil Saksa armee punaväe Viljandist välja tõrjus.
Ürituse eestvedaja on Eesti Sõjameeste Sakala Ühing. Korraldaja Jaanika Kressa ütlemist mööda tähistatakse 1941. aasta sündmust Eestis esimest korda ning tõenäoliselt ei hakata seda igal aastal tegema.
Sakslaste tulemist käsitletakse koosviibimisel Eesti vabastamisena, sest pääseti korra käest, mis oli 1941. aasta juunis üle 10 000 inimese Siberisse küüditanud ning siinset rahvast laastanud.
«Eestlastele muutus olukord uuesti normaalseks,» leidis Kressa ja lisas, et tal pole põhjust kahelda tolleaegse ajakirjaniku Arnold Sepa kirjutistes, mis seda väidet kinnitavat. «Siiski tuleb arvesse võtta, et tegu oli sõjaolukorraga ning tsiviilelu kannatas seetõttu igal pool.»
Viljandi muuseumi juhataja, ajaloolase Jaak Pihlaku sõnul sõltub hinnang Saksa vägede tuleku kohta hindaja seisukohast.
«Kellele oli see vabastamine, kellele mitte,» ütles Pihlak. «Aga juriidiliselt asendus üks okupatsioon teisega.»
Pihlak rääkis, et nõukogude võimuga võrreldes möödusid Hitleri režiimi aastad eestlastele kindlasti kergemalt.
«1940. aasta terror oli kahtlemata palju hukatuslikum kui need repressioonid, mille sakslased kolme aasta jooksul toime panid,» hindas ta. «Muidugi hingati toona kergendatult, kui palju kurja ja hirmu külvanud kord kadus.»
Jaanika Kressa kinnitas, et ürituse korraldajad ei soovi tundlikul teemal konflikte tekitada. «Me tahame allesjäänud sõdureid tänada ja öelda, et nad tegid bolševismi vastu võideldes õigesti,» sõnas ta."
source:
http://www.sakala.ajaleht.ee/491272/viljandis-tahistatakse-hitleri-armee-tulemise-aastapaeva/
...what a nice little country Estonia seems to be...When will you village-nazis begin to celebrate the killing of jews? Shame on you people of Viljandi. you are a shame for whole Europe.
Hah, moevenort, since you seem obsessed with this jew gassing and labro camping and all, let me come on over and get nazi on your ass. Let it all hang out.
Did you even read the text in Estonian? Did you understand?
Wtf, man?
may be the people of Viljandi should better remember something the same newspaper "Sakala" wrote some years ago in 2006 about a part of the towns history:
"Before the Jews should lose their life, they had to lose their dignity. On July 31st 1941 the city council of Viljandi decided that jewish people had to carry the yellow star on the right chest 5 cm big. The supervision was carried out by local police and Estonian omakaitse- volunteers. From now on Jews were forbidden to use public means of transport, public places and even the pavements. Immediately after the German army arrived, Estonian police units and omakaitse were assembled and all Jews were arrested. They were put into the prison of the police building. The rooms were overcrowded with people. Jewish men were shot soon. In one night, all women and children (some women had babies) were ordered to enter trucks that were waiting in front of the building. the people were ordered to cast of clothing, shoes and jewels. Expecting the worst, the prisoners began to scream for help. Accomplished by the degradation of the guards, the train of death started its last way. The common grave was prepared already. The hangmen at least head enough pity to kill adult people first as mothers could not bear the pain to watch the killing of their children. As the babies could not stand alone. one guard was throwing them into the air, while another one was shooting at them."
so that is the event some inhabitants of Viljandi are obviously celebrating in 2011 as the "better occupation" in comparison to the Russians. I feel sick to my stomack when I hear so much stupidity out of a small nationalist East European country. btw: the Jewish council of Estonia was protesting sharply against the celebration of an Regime that commited the worst crimes against humanity ever.
I do not know where you got this quote from, but it reads to me like something nazi krauts like yourself would be doing. I think you made this sheet up. Rooskies and krauts are good at that kind of sheet.
This is your another pathetic attempt to try to smear your own national quilt on others.
@ Livimaa parim ratsutaja:
Viljandi newspaper Sakala published this article. It can be found in their archives:
http://wwx.sakala.ajaleht.ee/280907/laupaev/kodulugu/5019556.php
Moevenort uses the article to degrade Estonia, but I think it is positive that Estonian media write about these issues.
Link not working. Please re-post.
For me the link works. But you can go to their archive and try to find the article with the title 'Linnaäärsed karjamaad asusid haudadel' published on 27.01.2006.
Should anyone wish to compare the actions of two horrible regimes in Estonia, it is plain that even the first Soviet occupation managed to be remarkably more brutal and commit more crimes than the subsequent Nazi occupation. I hope no-one is trying to deny that.
@ Mart: do you seriously believe what you are writing here? what kind of freaky village-nazi you are? I indeed deny what you say and most of my fellow citizen in Germany would deny your trivialization of holocaust crimes as well. Do something for your education, boy. Here is a starting point. Under this link you can find pictures made in 19944 /1945 in the concentration camp Klooga:
http://www.vilnaghetto.com/gallery2/v/vilna/album65/Klooga_concentration_camp6.jpg.html
Have a close look at these pictures, you freaky bastard and then dare to spread your trivialization of nazi-crimes once again. btw: in the Klooga concentration camp half of the guards who killed the Jews have been Estonians who did a voluntary service there. No one forced them, they wanted to kill Jewish citizen voluntary. These criminals were members of the 287. Kaitse Vahipataljon and of the 30. Eesti Politseipataljon (from Dezember 1943 onwards).
So you freak, when will you begin to deal honestly with your own history? Germany has dealt honestly with its history in the last decades. as well as other Western European countries have done (e.g. France with its collabaration history under the Vichy-Regime). Eastern European countries have not done it, including Estonia society which is one of the worst example for a mix of nationalism, national chauvinism and the falsification of history. What you are doing instead is puting yourself into a victims role you never had in reality. you are not the victims, you have committed crimes side by side with Wehrmacht and SS.
just to see how far the collaboration with the Nazis went in Estonia -
Julgeolekupolitsei ja SD Eestis Organisatsiooniplaan, seisuga 1. juuli 1942
http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilt:ORGANISATSIONPLAN_der_DIENSTELLE_REVAL_STAND_AM_1.7.1942.JPG
tell me Mart, why do you deny facts?
In other words, moevenort, you are coming to us sinners with open arms and want us to repent alongside with you of the crimes that you and your brethern brought to us and made us part of?
You brought us "drugs", made us junkies and now you want to tell us that there is an AA meeting and it has been good for you and we should hurry and join you.
I see.
Irritating. The link does not work. Search on Sakala site renders nothing. What gives? Can you please copy paste the entire article here if it exists.
the link is working perfectly...may be it is just about your abilities to work with a web browser?
Is this working perfectly for you?
http://wwx.sakala.ajaleht.ee/280907/laupaev/kodulugu
I do not have a nazi-configured browser, apparently.
Linnaäärsed karjamaad asusid haudadel
27.01.2006 00:01
Minu lapsepõlv möödus Viljandis. Mäletan, kuidas varahommikul, silmad veel unest rähmased, Maasiku ja Miki kannul karjamaa poole lonkisin, lehmade sõrgadest ülesküntud tolmusaba kannul.
Kantreküla loomaomanike ja lehmade igahommikune paraad suundus lennuvälja poole. Seal ampsasid lehmad mahlakat rohtu, naised-lapsed-ätid veeretasid ja kerisid jutusaba, mis ei tahtnud kuidagi lõppeda.
See lõppes siiski, kui taevaservale ilmusid «metsavahi» laialiaetud tiivad. Siis näitas tuulelohe karjalistele, kuhu poole liduda, et mitte jääda ette maanduvale lennukile. Lehmad jooksid, piimast rasked udarad pendeldamas ja karjastekari kannul. Siis ajasime loomad Männimäele ja nautisime järve kiirustava allikavee värskust.
Ikka ja jälle välja aetud
Kümneid aastaid hiljem kuulsin, et just neis paigus tehti sõja ajal koletuid tegusid. Viljandi lennuväljal asus Eesti suurim sõjavangide laager. Siin lähikonnas Männimäel, Huntaugu mägedel, samuti lasketiiru ümbruses, Reinuvälja tankikraavis jätsid oma elu tuhanded inimesed.
Juudid on elanud eestlaste keskel 5-6 sajandit. Pärast seda, kui piiblirahvas pagendati oma kodumaalt Iisraelist, on nad elanud võõrsil, kust neid on ikka ja jälle välja aetud.
Esimesed legaalsed juudid Viljandis olid sõdurid Pavlovski ja Avrohom, kelle perenimed pole teada.
Jaan Lattik kirjutab Viljandi 28 juudi pere elust XX sajandi hakul oma raamatus «Viljandi kirikumõis kõneleb» järgmist: «Klempner Marienburg, kellel oli suur perekond, kloppis ja tagus hommikust õhtuni oma töötoas, mille uks oli suvel alati avatud. Iga möödamineja võis näha, kuidas juut teeb pangi ja piimanõusid, higi otsa ees ja müts peas.
Kaubapoodide ustel seisid sageli omanikud ise ja teretasid viisakalt tuttavaid möödakõndivaid pürjereid... Oli paar juudi arsti ja niisama palju hambaarste. Rahvast käis rohkesti nende juures abi ja nõu otsimas. Kõik nad olid ja elasid rahva keskel mitte võõrastena, vaid eesti juutidena, kellele ei saanud midagi muud ette heita kui seda, et on juut.»
Piiblirahva suurim häving oli Teise maailmasõja aegne holokaust, mis tõlkes tähendab «täielik põletusohver».
Süü: beebi, juut
1934. aastaks oli juutide arv Eestis kasvanud 4381-ni. Umbes tuhatkond juuti otsustas sõja üle elada Eestis, ülejäänutel õnnestus pageda Venemaale. Kõik, kes jäid siia, hukati, kaasa arvatud Eesti rabi, Tartu Ülikooli juuditeaduse professor ja Eesti Vabadussõja veteranid.
Viljandi sajakonnast juudist läks Venemaale enamik, natside kätte jäi umbes 20, kõik hukati. Viljandi poliitilise politsei aruande järgi hukati R. Timust, Isaak ja Jankel Schois, Reisa Brauns, Lina ja Maks Abel, A. Aviva, Z. Rosenblatt, M. Maroschnikov, Z. Kumer, Kalman Jakobson, perekond Donde: Hanna, Jakob, Nikolai, Meissa, Reine, Sara, Saul (nimedes võib olla ebatäpsusi — toim.).
Inimsusevastaste Kuritegude Uurimise Eesti Rahvusvahelise Komisjoni raportis on kirjas: «Haarangud ja tapmised algasid kohe pärast esimeste Saksa vägede saabumist. Neile järgnes üsna pea hävitusüksus Einsatzkommando (Sonderkommando) 1A. Arreteerijateks ja peatselt järgnenud hukkajateks olid sakslaste järelevalve all eestlastest metsavennad, hiljem omakaitselased ja politseinikud.»
Tartusse tulid sakslased 10. ja 11. juulil, kaks päeva hiljem käskis Lõuna-Eesti metsavendade üldjuht major Kurg arreteerida kõik kohalikud juudid ja suunata nad vastloodud koonduslaagrisse. Varsti viidi nad niinimetatud surmabarakki ehk Lepiku barakki, erilisse juutidele mõeldud getosse Pargi tänaval.
Tartu koonduslaagri esimene ülem oli Juhan Jüriste, kes tunnistas kohtuprotsessil, et 1941. aasta juulis ja augustis ei olnud laagris mingisugust kohut, Saksa välikomandantuurile alluva eriosakonna politseinikud mõistsid inimesi, sealhulgas Tartu juute ka mahalaskmisele.
Pärnus tapeti kõik juudi mehed paari kuu jooksul, naised hukati Rae metsas, lapsed mürgitati sünagoogis-palvemajas. Noorim lastest oli mõnekuune imik, kelle süüks oli märgitud süüdistuskokkuvõttesse: beebi, juut.
Teises maailmasõjas tapeti 6 miljonit juuti, rahulikku elanikku, kellele mitte keegi polnud sõda kuulutanud. On öeldud: 100 inimese tapmine on katastroof, aga miljoni inimese tapmine statistika. Natsid hukkasid 1,5 miljonit juudi last ehk umbes 70 Viljandi-suuruse linna elanikku.
Rahvas nägi ja kuulis
Kuid enne elu pidid juudid loovutama inimväärikuse. Viljandi Linnavalitsus korraldas 31. juulil: «Juudid on kohustatud kandma paremal rinnal Taaveti tähte, 5 cm läbimõõduga ja kollane.» Järelevalve pandi politseile ja abipolitseile. Juutidel oli keelatud sõita ühistranspordis, käia kõnniteel, ilmuda avalikesse kohtadesse ja palju muud.
Kohe pärast sakslaste tulekut kogunesid politsei ja omakaitse, kõik juudid vahistati. Nad pandi politseilossi arestikambrisse, vanglasse. Ruumid olid paksult inimesi täis.
Mehed lasti peagi maha. Ühel sügisööl käsutati naised ja lapsed, mõned koguni rinnalapsega, vangla õuele, kus ootas veoauto. Vangidelt võeti ära riided ja jalanõud, samuti väärtasjad. Särgiväel käsutati nad veoautole. Aimates ette oma kohutavat saatust, hakkasid vangid appi hüüdma. Timukate sajatuste saatel hakkas surmarong mööda viimset teed liikuma. Ühishaud oli valmis.
Hukkajatel oli nii palju kaastunnet, et emad ja täiskasvanud tapeti enne, sest emasüda ei suuda taluda lapse tapmist. Lapsed hukati seejärel. Rinnalaps ei seisa, seepärast viskas üks timukas ta enne õhku ja teised lasksid.
Viljandi vanglas oli sel ajal elektrivalgustus rikkes, tapeti keskööl, inimesi hoiti pooleldi üksteise otsas, keskööl tuli vangla jaoskonnaülem laternaga ja hüüdis vange nimepidi välja. Kedagi neist enam tagasi ei toodud. Igal öösel viidi mahalaskmisele keskmiselt 50—100 inimest.
Linna lehmanaised nägid sagedasti hommikul tankitõrjekraavis mullaga pooleldi katmata naiste valgeid käsi. Laibad olid hooletult maetud, sest timukad olid purjus. Enne hukkamist joodeti nad tavaliselt purju.
«Eriti hirmsaks kujunes juudi rahvusest naiste ja laste tapmine. Igaüks, kes kuulis kord ühel tormisel pimedal sügisööl naiste ja laste surmaeelset appihüüet Tallinna tänaval ja kes hiljem kuulis nende metsikust tapmisest, sellel tarretus veri soontes. Natsiideoloogid leidsid, et saksa rahva viletsuse põhjus on juudid. Saksa rahvas arvas, et nemad on äravalitud rahvas,» kirjutatakse tollases Viljandi lehes.
Tapetute vara jaotati tapjate vahel, osa sai vanglapersonal, osa politsei juhtkond.
Arhiivis on Viljandi prefekti ettekirjutus politseikomissaridele septembrist 1941. «Väga kiire. Saksa sõjaväeüksuste korraldusel tuleb arreteerida kõik mustlased ja saata Viljandi vanglasse.» Viljandi mustlased hukati samuti.
Kas lõpp vihkamisele?
«Kuidas hinnata eestlaste osalust Saksamaa juudivastases poliitikas ning Eesti juutide hukkamises?» küsib oma artiklis «Eesti juutide holokaust ja eestlased» ajakirjas «Vikerkaar» (nr. 8-9, 2001) ajaloolane Meelis Maripuu. Ja vastab samas: «Eesti rahvas peaks olema piisavalt täiskasvanud, julgemaks endale tunnistada, et kõik eesti mehed, kes on minevikus relva kandnud, pole olnud sangarid. Aga meil ei ole ka mingit põhjust endale kui rahvusele tuhka pähe raputada.»
Praegu elab Viljandis veel paar juuti, kes elasid siin enne sõda ja põgenesid natside eest Venemaale. Ei olnud kerge elu ka seal, kuid juudid on harjunud raskusi võitma.
Kahjuks ei ole Teise maailmasõjaga vaen juutide vastu lõppenud. Üks Viljandi juuditaridest töötas pikka aega oma kodulinnas õpetajana. Koolis tuli nii mõnigi kord kuulda õpilaste suust solvavaid vihjeid õpetaja rahvuse kohta.
Lootust annab see, et ka sõja ajal leidus Eestis inimesi, kes aitasid ja päästsid juute, praegugi leidub selle rahva sõpru mitmel pool maailmas.
Ajalugu peaksime teadma ja mäletama selleks, et minevikuõudused enam ei korduks.
Armas lugeja! Kui sinul on rohkem teadmisi sellest, mis juhtus juutidega sõja ajal Eestis, eriti aga Viljandis, siis palun kirjuta aadressil Laine t. 8-19, 80016 Pärnu. Piret Udikas.
HOLOKAUST
Holokaust (kreeka keeles holokauston — täielikult ohverdatud) on paljude rahvaste, usklike ja poliitiliste rühmade vastu toime pandud genotsiid natsionaalsotsialistlikul Saksamaal ja Saksamaa okupeeritud või liidendatud aladel aastatel 1933—1945.
Kitsamas tähenduses mõistetakse holokausti all juutide kallal Teise maailmasõja ajal toime pandud genotsiidi; laiemas mõistes on holokaust igasugune genotsiid.
Süstemaatiliselt tapeti holokausti käigus ka vaimuhaigeid, füüsiliste puuetega inimesi, homoseksuaale, jehoovatunnistajaid, kommuniste, poliitilisi teisitimõtlejaid ja kriminaalkurjategijaid.
27. jaanuar 1945 on kuupäev, mil vabastati natside suurim surmalaager Auschwitz-Birkenau Poolas. Sellest päevast on saanud rahvusvaheline holokaustipäev.
"Commemoration of 1941 German Invasion Sparks Anger: A ceremony in Viljandi commemorating the German invasion of 1941 as a "liberation" has drawn sharp criticism from the Estonian Jewish community as well as from the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Israel."
http://news.err.ee/politics/112f9c01-0c26-48fa-a17d-739a6c0ab9f1
moevenort, I am well aware of the Klooga concentration camp, thank you. It does seem, however, that you are completely ignorant of Estonia's history and try to bolster your cluelessness with insults. Please do not do that, you will only embarrass yourself further.
Here’s a long post about the two occupations in detail (I won’t even get into the third one for the time being).
The crimes against humanity committed by the first Soviet occupation in Estonia (1940-41)
1. Prosecutions, imprisonment and executions of the citizens and residents
Starting from the June of 1940, national and local politicians, higher officials of the police, higher officers of the military, leaders of the Defence League, selected judges, selected members of non-governmental organizations, wealthier businessmen and wealthier farmers were arrested by the NKVD.
According to the existing data, around 7500 people were imprisoned during those years, at least 2000 were executed and the rest were sent to prison camps in Russia, where at least 4000 of them died in imprisonment.
2. Deportation of citizens and residents
Mainly on the charge of counterrevolutionary tendencies, on the 14th of June 1941 over 10 000 people (with an additional 1000 people later in June) were deported from Estonia. Over 5000 women and 2500 children under the age of 16 were among the deported. Around 3000 of them (mostly men) were sent to prison camps. Nearly all of them were executed or died later in imprisonment. The rest were sent to Siberia, where about a half of them managed to survive until the end of war.
3. Forced transfer of Estonian men
From the beginning of July to the end of August 1941 around 32 000-33 000 of men born in the years 1907-1919 were gathered together under the guise of mobilization and taken to Russia. Due to the frequent use of forced march, at least 3000 of them perished on the way.
4. Killing of citizens and residents
From the June to the October of 1941, around 2000 civilians were killed by NKVD Destruction Battalions and retreating Red Army.
The crimes against humanity committed by the German occupation in Estonia (1941-44)
1. Killing of Estonian Jews
All the Estonian Jews remaining in Estonia in 1941 (between 950 and 1000, including women and children) were rounded up and killed by Einsatzkommando 1a before the end of 1941.
2. Killing of foreign Jews on the territory of Estonia
A number of Jews from Lithuania, Poland and Czechoslovakia were transported to Estonia. A labor camp was established at Jägala, while those unable to work were killed at Kalevi-Liiva. Around 3000 were killed in both camps put together. Most of the prisoners of camps in Estonia were taken to Stutthof in the autumn of 1944, however approximately 2000 were shot and burned in Klooga.
3. Use of slave labor
There is evidence of the use of slave labor, where Jews and some Soviet prisoners were meant to be worked to death. It is approximated that this adds as much as 2000 persons to the death toll of camps in Estonia.
3. Killing of Roma in Estonia
An unknown number but most likely around 500 Estonian Roma were killed in the years 1941-44.
4. Killing of other citizens and residents
Around 6000 citizens of Estonia and an additional 1000 people with mostly Russian citizenship were accused of Communist sympathies, imprisoned and subsequently killed in the years 1941-1944.
I just don't have any tears for all of that cruelty.
Nice work by Germans and Russians to get couple of no-goodniks to cooperate and to scare the rest.
Eff them all.
Yes, but why should Möwen-Ort pay attention to evidence? He's anti-Estonian, and it doesn't matter if things are more complicated than he wants them to be, he won't change his mind.
He won't embarrass himself, because he doesn't pay attention to truth. If you wear bad clothes but are convinced they're good, you'll just ignore the public reaction. Or you'll think they're all secretly envious of your nice clothes.
People were very lucky that they managed to go back from Siberia and stay alive. ~600.000 people who died during St-Petersburg blockage did not have such a chance and their children and grandchildren do not have chance to write about it, because they all are dead.
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