neljapäev, juuni 17, 2010

seitsekümmend aastat

From left to right, Neeme Ruus, Johannes Lauristin, Karl Säre, and Andrei Zhdanov. The month is June, the year is 1940, and these enthralled men are watching a demonstration of workers pleading for the formation of a new government.

Estonia dates its occupation from June 1940, 70 years from this week, when uninvited Soviet troops poured across the border, Soviet navy blockaded its ports, Soviet airforce shot down its planes, and hired protestors made their point to the sitting Estonian government abundantly clear that the days of making any autonomous decisions on Toompea were over.

The script had been approved by Leningrad party boss Zhdanov and fellow Soviet emissaries to Latvia and Lithuania weeks before. Demonstrations to remove the governments, followed by the appointment of Soviet-dependent decision makers, followed ultimately by appeals to join the fraternity of Soviet republics. And it all happened on schedule. Like clockwork, demands were made to the Baltic governments in mid June, new governments in office by the end of the month, fresh (and rigged) elections by mid July, and synchronized appeals to Moscow for incorporation that were mulled over and affirmed by the first week of August. In less than two months, the Baltic countries had been swallowed whole, seemingly by their own hands.

By some accounts, the decision to incorporate the Baltic countries into the USSR had been made in February, by other accounts in April. The spring of 1940 was incredibly messy for European countries big and small. When Ruus, Lauristin, Säre, and Zhdanov looked down on those protestors for hire, Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands and a swath of France had been occupied by the German Reich. Britain looked forward to a summer of aerial bombardment. America was still gazing at its Depression-hit navel, some of its financiers pondering the wisdom of their investments.

Some argue that Hitler egged Stalin on to do something as brazen as incorporate these three countries into the USSR. But then, as now, Moscow's great leaders saw what the other great powers were doing in Europe and Asia and didn't want to miss out on the opportunity. It was a classic case of, "Everyone else is doing it, so why can't we?" And keeping up with the Joneses, meant taking out the Estonians.

The Estonian state was brittle, anyhow, isolated and ripe for the picking. President Konstantin Päts carried out a political coup in 1934 ahead of an assured electoral defeat to the quasi-fascist Vaps, who yearned for a strong hand to guide them through the turmoil of the Great Depression, and traded Estonia's democratic soul in the process. The Estonian left splintered between those who would cooperate with Päts and those who wouldn't. Neeme Ruus, a young social democrat, was one of the radicals in his party who wouldn't. In 1940, he needed a job. Zhdanov decided he could be minister of social affairs in the new, progressive Moscow-friendly government.

Towards the end of the thirties, Päts tried to liberalize the outcome the '34 coup and move the country towards eventual, at least partially free elections. In this new climate of openness, he pardoned Vaps and Communists alike. But after sitting for, in some cases, 14 years in Estonian prison for their role in an attempted 1924 coup, Estonia's reds had no warm feelings for the regime that had just freed them, and at the same time were not yet up to date on the bloody purges that had recently taken place in Russia that had claimed the lives of so many of their fellow revolutionaries. Johannes Lauristin was such a comrade. In 1940, he needed a job. In August, he became chairman of the council of people's commissars of the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic.

On June 17, the Estonian government gave in to all Soviet demands. Any other option would have been suicide, they determined, both tragic and ironic when you consider how many of them died in Soviet concentration camps or at the wrong end of the firing squad. Some of them did kill themselves. The outcome for Estonia was still the same. As the month rolled on, Päts himself became the puppet president of a puppet government. His presence added an air of legality to a takeover forced at gunpoint, for if there had been no army pouring across the border, no naval blockade, and no political demands from Moscow, then there would have been no Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic. Päts even posed with the Soviet ambassador for a group shot in mid July. The Soviet ambassador toasted the Tartu Peace Treaty of 1920. He pledged the undying respect of Moscow for Estonian independence.

Several days later, the freshly elected, handpicked, Moscow-friendly Estonian parliament, again barricaded by tanks on Toompea, with Red Army soldiers looking on, voted to join the Soviet Union. But in their zeal to bring Estonia under complete Soviet control, the puppet masters in Moscow forgot many details. Estonian constitutional law was essentially ignored in the effort to keep the Baltic countries on schedule, so the manner in which the Republic of Estonia joined the Soviet Union was inherently illegal, though Päts, himself a lawyer, signed his name on the documents, perhaps knowing how well it might stand up in some distant court, in an alternative reality where Nazis did not parade down the streets of Oslo and Copenhagen and Paris, where bombs did not fall on English cities, and where the actual wills of peoples were taken into account by more powerful authorities. Besides, Päts was certain that Germany would attack Russia. The two lovers were simply incompatible. The Estonian president is said to have expected the break up to take place on any day in the summer of 1940. Then, he perhaps reasoned, it would be a whole different ballgame.

Päts was ultimately right, but his forecast was off by a year. By the time the Germans actually did show up, he was sitting in a Soviet prison, and he would die in a Soviet hospital a decade and a half later. By the time Päts had died -- supposedly hospitalized because he still claimed to be the president of Estonia -- Stalin was dead, Zhdanov was dead, and Neeme Ruus, Johannes Lauristin, and Karl Säre were but faded memories for Estonians who had seen so many regimes come and go, so many men appear and disappear within such a short period of time.

Ruus was shot by the Germans in 1941. Lauristin allegedly went down on one of the ships during the Soviet evacuation from Tallinn. And what of Karl Säre, that diminutive Communist operative who also needed a job in 1940, and became first secretary of the Estonian Communist Party? Like Ruus, he later fell into the hands of the Germans and was transferred to Denmark to stand trial for murder. After 1943, he was never seen from nor heard of again.

Ruus, Lauristin, Säre, Päts. They all put an Estonian face on the Soviet takeover of their country, signing off on decisions made in many cases by the party boss of Leningrad. Estonians today still wait for the rulers in Moscow to personally acknowledge the moral sewer of 1940, the geopolitical slime in which they lost their independence. For them, it's a kind of compass -- a way to gauge their neighbor's intentions. It drives Russia's rulers mad to have something like that expected of them, for in an era when they are trying to regain some confidence, the last thing they desire to do is to personally apologize to some pipsqueak former province.

That's Russia. Few countries have easy dealings with it. But within Estonia, the people have ever since had to deal with the local face of the June "revolution." They have to deal with the reality that they too played a role in the forfeiture of their country. Today, one wouldn't be surprised to see the descendants of all these families, most of them still prominent, drinking in a pub. They are professors and politicians and bureaucrats. One is even a former first lady. All claim to love Estonia, and nobody would ever question that loyalty or adoration. On occassion, it seems like the past never happened. Your best bet to even read about it is to go scrounging around used furniture stores for discarded Soviet history books. Today, 70 years later, it is June 1940 that seems like an alternative reality. It is the nightmarish faded black and whites of the takeover that drift into obscurity. And most young Estonians probably know little of this past, and are content not to know.

Sometimes I wonder if they are right.

306 kommentaari:

«Vanimad   ‹Vanemad   201–306/306
Bea ütles ...

But 20 years of statehood are many enough for people who were striving to that statehood consciously, who saw the benefits of that statehood of theirs, to cherish that statehood and feel insulted if you say it was worth nothing, the nation was worth nothing but another occupation by whomever had their state longer, for example.

The Balts had 20 years of real statehood after the fall of the USSR (poor awful country) and merely 6 years in the EU. Why do you think it shall have been accepted by them as a great, human, peaceful idea of yours to come to them and tell roughly that their country was rubbish, nearly everyone's ideas here were plain inhuman, undemocratic and they were not worthy to be accepted to the EU at all? Are they responsible for that they had been accepted to the EU so unworthily after apparently so worthily having spent 50 years behind the double iron curtain (having less of political and other life development than even Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Yougoslavia, Germany or Romania with Bulgaria could have)?

moevenort ütles ...

"What criminal SS divisions? Nothing criminal about the Estonian Legion."

and ieven f you don``t like it. I will repeat it again: I will call them what they have been. members of a criminal organization.

Unknown ütles ...

Who the f*ck cares anymore about some silly Waffen SS. It's the past guys, let it go. Live in the future.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Bea: is your business if you can´t read my words carefully. I have never said the things you accuse me. it´s just your interpretation. that permanent crying of perceiving you as the biggest victim instead of discussing arguments. as I said already. it bores with the time.

notsu ütles ...

Another point of view from Timothy Snyder who compares Nazi and Soviet crimes, not on the political basis of totalitarianism, but on territorial grounds and on economic calculation as the reason of mass killings:

"[...] when one considers the total number of European civilians killed by totalitarian powers in the middle of the twentieth century, one should have in mind three groups of roughly equal size: Jews killed by Germans, non-Jews killed by Germans, and Soviet citizens killed by the Soviet state."

"[...] as Auschwitz draws attention away from the still greater horrors of Treblinka, the Gulag distracts us from the Soviet policies that killed people directly and purposefully, by starvation and bullets."

"[...] over a period of twelve years, between 1933 and 1944, some 12 million victims of Nazi and Soviet mass killing policies perished in a particular region of Europe, one defined more or less by today's Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia. [...] mass killing happened, predominantly, in the parts of Europe between Germany and Russia, not in Germany and Russia themselves."

"Although the history of mass killing has much to do with economic calculation, memory shuns anything that might seem to make murder appear rational. [...] Both regimes were aiming for economic autarky in a large empire, in which both sought to control eastern Europe. Both of them saw the Polish state as a historical aberration; both saw Ukraine and its rich soil as indispensable. They defined different groups as the enemies of their designs, although the German plan to kill every Jew is unmatched by any Soviet policy in the totality of its aims. What is crucial is that the ideology that legitimated mass death was also a vision of economic development. In a world of scarcity, particularly of food supplies, both regimes integrated mass murder with economic planning",

and then he argues it should be taken as a lesson, to avoid repeating these horrors:
"If there is a general political lesson of the history of mass killing, it is the need to be wary of what might be called privileged development: attempts by states to realize a form of economic expansion that designates victims, that motivates prosperity by mortality. [...] The only sufficient answer is an ethical commitment to the individual, such that the individual counts in life rather than in death, and schemes of this sort become unthinkable."

So, such comparisons can be a valid tool for a historian or a political theorist, and more than that, they can serve humanist purposes. I am apalled by statements that try to blackbrush such a tool as being "nazi sympathizing".

Unknown ütles ...

that permanent crying of perceiving you as the biggest victim instead of discussing arguments.

If this were Wikipedia, that would have a "citation needed" sign after it or it would be deleted.

Bea ütles ...

Don't you think, moevenort, that most people in your Eastern Germany have always been more wealthy than the average Estonians? They still are. Don't you think that this might be the real reason why Estonia forces itself to be neoliberal so far? Don't you think their budget is simply too empty to afford more social benefits and more social talks then as well (well, except in churches and charity events)?

I agree they could be more self-critical and less self-complacent in some cases, they could possibly be less divided from their Russian-speaking citizens, more friendly to the newcommers. There's always a room to improve.

Bea ütles ...

LOL, moevenort, you ascribed me the "permanent crying" and "perceiving us" as "the biggest victim ever" now.

What I told were facts. The facts you didn't want to accept.

I have no problem with your ideas and constructive critics, I said. I read them well. But I say you constantly seem to ascribe additional nonsense to what people say to you, if you know those people are Estonians. You label them, you accuse them of being what you imagine they could/should be because they are Estonians.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Bea: no I don´t do. Unfortunately I can´t help if you have this impression. But if the content is so interesting for you, you may discuss it with Joshua? then you don´t have to accuse me and you can have a purely inner Estonian diologue if you like that more.

Doris ütles ...

"@ Bea: interestingly Joshua seems to hold quite similar viewpoints then I do here. And he is Estonian? And now what you do? lying to yorself as well? saying that he hates Estonians? come on, you can`t tell me that you seriously believe this nonsens. I can´t hear that " oh our nation is the biggest victim ever, no one understands us, people from other countries just want to force their ideas on us " crying anymore. it bores with the time"

Then stop forcing your ideas on us!

Persuade - that's another topic. But you are coming off very militant.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Doris: "us" is again your strange idea of Estonain "Volksgemeinschaft" with all holding the same "healthy" opinion? with no "disturbing" viewpoints? is this what you want, Doris?

Unknown ütles ...

Somewhat related news.

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/eesti-20-sajandi-ajalugu-joudis-kolmes-keeles-internetti.d?id=31823007

Estonian 20th century history now on the Internet in Estonian, English and Russian. Over 200 articles and over 100 archive photos.

http://www.estonica.org/en/History/

Bea ütles ...

No, moevenort, it's not an excuse for spreading undemocratic ideas (I'm not saying it's right to spread the undemocratic ideas then); it's an explanation why not everybody is able to have and spread ONLY the democratic ideas. Do you say NOBODY dares to tell anything you would deem undemocratic in [East] Germany now, btw, and EVERYBODY is telling just THAT in Estonia? :D

To join the Western Germany and to be German was different (easier) way to that democracy and humanism you preach than to stay by the Russian border and have to learn Finnish, Swedish or English before you could go North or West and see their ideas, their life, try to get their amount of free time for studies of their ideas, etc.

I'm saying you shall care of those subtle nuances in histories of different countries if you care to know why the countries and peoples in Europe are somewhat different.

LPR ütles ...

Moevenort - why did you kill so many jews? And now you say you were wrong?

LPR ütles ...

Have you been reformed by inglorious basterds?

moevenort ütles ...

@piimapukk:

"why did you kill so many jews? "

you accuse me of what? do you damm f.. assho...ever think before you write something? is that your damm level of intelligence? what has happened with your brain? already totally destroid by the alchohol you consume the whole day to escape the triste reality of your damm village?

Unknown ütles ...

*nice* :D

Bea ütles ...

No, moevenort, what ever you said I did or say to, or think wrong of Joshua, I didn't. He appologized for what he was wrong about (calling all the Estonians here a few names angrily because he'd ascribed them some stupidity as well). I have no problem with the rest what he said. ;)

I am not Estonian, I don't live in Estonia, that's why I've said I don't really know how many are Nazis among Estonians and how awful the Estonian nationalism now may be. I'm not aware of all the nuances there.

LPR ütles ...

Movenort, your leader gave similar fist-poinding hysterical speeches.

What's next in your repetoire? Are you going to chant "Deuchland, Deuchland uber alles!"?

I mean, genes - you can't fight them.

That is why nazis needed to be destroyed. Eliminated. How did you survive?

The best way for you to help the world is to put your Walther to your temple and pull the trigger.

moevenort ütles ...

"The best way for you to help the world is to put your Walther to your temple and pull the trigger."

you are really able to top even the lowest level of intelligence. what mean the other Estonian people here? are you proud on such wonderful example of an Estonian citizen in your middle? it is wonder itself that he ever learnt how to use they keyboard of a computer.

Unknown ütles ...

moevenort, all he did was sink to your level (okay, maybe a bit further, but that's allowed in theatre). If you would represent the majority of Germans, I'd be really worried and Estonia would need to buy those tanks and anti-aircraft systems really fast. Luckily you don't.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Andres:

"If you would represent the majority of Germans"

who tells you that I don`t, my dear boy? be sure that I do represent the majority of German people in most of the things I have written here. So are you worried now? that the world is may be different than in your small imagination? As I told you, my society here is like another planet for people like you. It´s even more different from you small world that you can imagine in your wildest fantasy. your problem is that your picture of Germany is still the picture of the Germany of the 1950s. Probably you have never lerned something else. It has nothing to do with the modern Germany of today. If that scares people like you - fine. it should scare you. because yopur worldviews are an anacronism. something from a time fortunately long gone away in Western Europe. you may can try to conserve your old fashined pseudo-elitist viewpoints for a while in the small nutschell you are living. But they will have no future.

Bea ütles ...

Indeed, I always wonder how Hitler's voice could be heard as pleasant and convincing by masses back then.
It had to be some madness, many people should have felt they couldn't control their lives and comprehend the world in all its complexity anymore, they all should have become somewhat hysterical before they could trust him and feel happy to have him as their herd and teacher, in my opinion.

Doris ütles ...

"@ Doris: "us" is again your strange idea of Estonain "Volksgemeinschaft" with all holding the same "healthy" opinion? with no "disturbing" viewpoints? is this what you want, Doris?"

you are a demagogue and a hypocrite. for the fourth (or is it the fifth already) time you completely ignore the point of what I've said and focus on twisting the words into what you want me to have said so you can have a nice fight.

I point out your hypocricy word for word and you focus on a fact error (who cares if you have an i-pod or use linux? you did NOT address the point). I said slave trade was, and still is by the way, at least as bad as holocaust. in scale as well as cruelty as well as number of victims. you ignored it.

And now you focus on the word "us" when I have spelled it out for you twice. Here goes a third time:

I do not agree with you. You do not agree with me. That is fine. I am not trying to change your opinions, I am trying to get you to understand that foring your opinions on me is not acceptable. You can say whatever you want but you cannot expect me to think the way you think just because YOU think that way. Forcing your individual opinions on the Estonian state is also not acceptable. This especially since you first make up what the Estonian state is and then start applying your own ideals on it. It is the opposite of democracy that you're supposedly so fond of.

Unknown ütles ...

be sure that I do represent the majority of German people in most of the things I have written here. So are you worried now?

I doubt that. I've been to Germany several times. When we visited a friendship school, I stayed with a German family. None of them were rabid beasts like you. They were humble and kind people. If I remember correctly, only one girl had to switch families, because the mother kept making comments like "You surely don't have things like this at home, enjoy" while serving completely normal food every family in Estonia would eat etc. In the end she just couldn't handle it anymore and went away.

Unknown ütles ...

In fact, I'm going to go to a festival in Germany in a couple of weeks, where we will be again stationed in German families. So I'll let you know if I find myself in the middle of patronizing closet-nazis like you. I somehow don't think that will be the case.

LPR ütles ...

Whay did you not anzwer my keshtion, meine freund, Strubanfurher Movenort? Why did you kill so many jews? Ah?

Do you not feel quilty at all?

There waz childrens among them, did you not know?

How can you sleep?

moevenort ütles ...

@ Andres. aha. an from your short visits you dare to say now that you know my society better than I do who was spending my whole life here, knowing probably a huge amount of people more than you? thats funny, especially if I imagine how you " I like the elite" guy would react, if I would claim to know your country better than you? but let´s stay reasonable: how representative you think is the small ammount of people you may have met in Germany? .btw: I have seen quite many regions of Estonia and have spent definately more time in your country than you have spent in mine. but ok, I guess apart from that you have probably seen one particular region only with some particular people. How representative is that? Do you know representative opinion polls or scientific studies how ordinary German people think about certain issues? have you read anythink like this? no? I could tell you lot of those studies quoting you point to point how close my opinion is to the average German positions. don´t dare to say you know anything about it. you know nothing about the level of discussion in my country at all. nothing.

Bea ütles ...

Thanks, notsu, for that link to Hannah Arendt's book, btw.

Myst ütles ...

Moevenort, you seem not to realize what has been said to you; the sad hilarity of it. Let me spell it out for you. In this discussion we have an overly aggressive German absolutely convinced of the infallibility of his own viewpoint and the superiority of his people, treating anyone who disagrees with him with utter contempt. I half expect you to next suggest an Endlösung for "people like me". You know, the inferior people of Eastern Europe...

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. You've made some good points in this thread and Joshua even more so. That doesn't change the fact, however, that you're an obnoxious prick who I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting.

No, you are not like most Germans, because as Andres said most Germans are kind, good people.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Myst: that´s quite interesting. especially how objective you are in your assesment. Tell me, why I have never heart your voice here when people wrote things like this:

"Why did you kill so many jews? Ah?

Do you not feel quilty at all?

There waz childrens among them, did you not know?

How can you sleep?"

or:

"I mean, genes - you can't fight them."

or

"The best way for you to help the world is to put your Walther to your temple and pull the trigger."

and now tell me, my dear myth: is that your objectivity? Have I ever used such disgusting and pervers style of language? Proof me the contrary! as long as you complain about my style and don´t say one word about this style for me you are nothing more than a hypocrite living out a perverse kind of double moral.

Giustino ütles ...

I can´t hear that " oh our nation is the biggest victim ever, no one understands us, people from other countries just want to force their ideas on us " crying anymore. it bores with the time.

Sounds just like Russia, actually, but in their case, the Germans and the rest of the West indulge the Kremlin, while the Estonians' wounds are but an inconvenience.

I have often gotten the sense that the Estonians are an inconvenience to both Berlin and Moscow: they wish they didn't exist, that they didn't have to listen to their stories, that they didn't need the approval of those swamp people for their precious natural gas pipeline.

The SS/Red Army nonsense has gone on for long enough, and elements of the new regimes in both Tallinn and Moscow have fanned the flames by pretending that SS divisions fought for the Estonian Republic, which was underground at the time, or that Red Army divisions fought for the Russian Federation, which did not exist at the time. How can you fight for a country that was founded 46 years after the fact? I don't know. Time travel?

Putin's approach is to dress all Soviet mythology in the new clothes of the Russian Federation. All old propaganda is dusted off and given a nice, new white, blue, and red paint job. Just change some words in the national anthem, delete the word "Soviet" and add the word "Russian." It's almost as Communism never existed, and yet it was the Red Army because it was the army of Communism; wherever the Red Army stopped, the local governments became Communist governments. The Red Army was the tool of Soviet imperialism in its neighborhood, because no one would actually vote those half-educated theorists into office! For 46 years after the fall of Berlin, the Second World War was an ideological war, a victory not over Germans but "fascism." And now Putin's regime pretends it was a national war, a victory of Russians and "Russian-speaking people" over fascist Germanic invaders, who include Estonians, even though Estonians were also in the Red Army.

In Estonia, there are several competitive political parties, only one of whom -- my dear Moevenort -- has tried to enshrine Estonian SS veterans as national heroes in law and lost that vote. This party currently has 19 seats in a 101-seat parliament. It is true that many of these veterans believed they were fighting to stave off the Soviets. But that same German regime executed many Estonian citizens, and was inherently anti Estonian, both from a national and legal perspective. Wading into that mess and trying to create some kind of pro-state mythology takes ambition, but, it has been done. As they say, the Estonians' favorite sport is uphill skiing.

moevenort ütles ...

again:


"Why did you kill so many jews? Ah?

Do you not feel quilty at all?

There waz childrens among them, did you not know?

How can you sleep?"

or:

"I mean, genes - you can't fight them."

or

"The best way for you to help the world is to put your Walther to your temple and pull the trigger."


Imagine, how big would be the sream here when I would use such a language speaking about Estonian people? /what I have never done and would never do) that no one cares about such words of this idiot here, shows the double moral. why do you save him? Becuase hes is part of the so "united Estonian community"?

Myst ütles ...

as long as you complain about my style and don´t say one word about this style for me you are nothing more than a hypocrite living out a perverse kind of double moral.


There's no question that Piimapukk was out of line. However, this discussion largely revolves around you and your views. You therefore set the tone. Change that and people will respond differently to you, I'm sure.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Myst: so "out of line" he was? nice description, especially in comparison for the words you was using for me. As Joshua was writing here two days ago (you may search for his post if you want) : He does not think that my tone was wrong in any way. He also don`t think that all Estonian people who complain about this in this discussion here speak for all Estonians. I think the problem is, (as Joshua also described it quite well) the distribution of people you meet here: overwealming majority of Isamaa and Reform party supporters. I know their crude ideology only too good. the problem is by far my tone. compare it objective with what others wrote here. I was using arguments at least. How many here did not, just using primitive accusations? the problem is not my tone. if it has been too agressive from time to time, ok. I am not perfect. no one is. But unfortunately this polarization sometinmes seem to be the only language some of them understand. "made dogs bark" it´s an old German wisdom. this seems to be the case here as well.

LPR ütles ...

Obersturmanfurher Moevenort has questioned the current audience about their willingness to tolerate people like myself among them. This question is very interesting condidering the circumstance that I happen to be a jew. Herr Moevenort should know that I am very thankful for Estonians for providing me with safe haven from being "cleansed." For being "different."

LPR ütles ...

Sorry, I speak and type with a lisp. I meant to say - considering.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Piimapuuk: and what you want to say with that? what has your religion to do with the disgusting style of language you are using? do you think this is an excuse or makes it better? very strange attitute!

LPR ütles ...

I know, as a nazi german you find us, jews and our styles repugnant. Even the way we breathe irritates you. Does it not?

You are a nazi, admit it. You may be half russian, but the other half, the one that was not raped by liberators but cut down in the fields outside of snowy Stalingrad, that half makes you foam from your mouth and teach the others how they should be.

Giustino ütles ...

Oh jeez. Guess I better write another blog post soon ... Move along, people, minge edasi, move along ...

moevenort ütles ...

@ piimapurk: guy, don't bore me. what you try is to use your religion as an excuse for you shameful, disgusting, primitive language. For The perverse shit you are talking here there is no excuse, regardless if your religion is christian, jewish, moslem or if you are an atheist. It remains perverse and tops the lowest level of probably all comments ever made on this blogs. so don't try to tell me that your religion plays any role. It plays no. Btw: do you think I am so primitive as you are? Believing only one second that you would speak for any jewish or other religion. You don't. As the neoliberal isamaa / reform party supporters dont speak for all Estonians (even if they would like, they never wilL. And concerning you: you are just a sick, perverse idiot. Such people exist among all religions and nations. Is this enough for you now? as you as long you use such absolute primitive level of language, you are not worth of any discussion. That people like you can speak such perverse things here is a shame itself and not covered by any freedom of speech as you might claim. Its just perverse and ppersonal insulting. Nothing more to say about.

Myst ütles ...

Well, at least we managed to prove the validity of Godwin's Law, eh. :)

I'm sorry that I also contributed to that, and to nothing else.

It was an interesting read for the most part. I hope noone goes home holding a grudge.

LPR ütles ...

Moevenort likes to push people out of their comfort zone.

So do I.

He should be out on the ledge somewhere.

I'd be right there in the middle of the awestruck crowd below shouting: "Jump, mother-...r!"

So it is happening here.

It is all fun and games for me.

Lingüista ütles ...

Movenort, your insistence on the holocaust as a "unicum" that cannot be compared to other things without desacrating it (as if it hadn't been done by simple humans, like everything else in history), and your insistence that the Baltic/Estonian S.S. divisions are the same as the Einsatzkommandos and should not be differentiated (just like confusing Nazis and Germans, Commies and Russians -- related, but not the same, right?)... these are mistakes in my opinion.

Notice that I'm not making any big accusations against you -- I don't think you're a Communist, or a middle-class rebel, or anything. As far as I see, you're simply a human being with opinions I disagree with and wouldn't mind discussing.

martintg ütles ...

moevenort ütles...
@ Evil Purc: the nieveau you try to pread here is not worth any serous discussion. But if you like it so much: how long is the list of Estonian citizen who voluntary served in criminal SS divisions?


The 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS were a conscript formation, and Nuremburg exempted conscripts from any judgement.

Heck, the allies even used them to guard the Nazis in prison during the trials.

Anonüümne ütles ...

One of the best recent depictions of where evil and terrorism come from is " The White Ribbon":http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/movies/01klaw.html?_r=1&ref=movies
.
Evil comes from from innocence, from a perverted desire to be good, from our own human imperfections. Unfortunately , I believe, that fighting for idealogies come from this type of innocence as well.

Our human nature has a tendency to test our power over others. It is our nature to desire to leave our mark on the world. Sometimes this desire goes over the bounds of what is good for other people, and goes into sexual abuse, mutilation, killing, insulting ostracizing the other. Most religion and systems of thought dealing with the human psyche teach, that human nature is basically good. It is basically perfect.

In the mid nineties there was a sense that despite recent atrocities on both sides all was forgiven. That everything was going to be alright in the frenzy of building, and watching MTV and buying blue jeans and interacting with exotic people from west.It's interesting that the generation in Estonia which was born in the time of greatest forgiveness and hope for the future has become the most invested in the past. It seems to be a truth of human nature that change and sometimes what we perceive as evil comes from innocence. It seems that fearing it only makes it worse.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Here's the movie review:

White Ribbon


I liked the nineties...they were a ton of fun. Maybe we can be retro?

Seriously, if people keep this up, even guys that can't get a date in Ohio aren't going to want move to Estonia, because it's too depressing, and then independent journalism will just go to shit.

Unknown ütles ...

This.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vum2UOIUi6w

LPR ütles ...

10 points to Puu this time. That was funny. The independend media going to the dogs if white gods start losing interest in following their berry-picking blondes to the Mosquito Coast.

Little chuckle at the expense of the host here sure enough. But all said with good humour and a friendly pat on the back.

I am sure he is able to chuckle at it himself. If not, he should listen to that J.M.K.E. pohui-pohui song more closely.

martintg ütles ...

Well, Giustino's conclusion:
"But within Estonia, the people have ever since had to deal with the local face of the June "revolution." They have to deal with the reality that they too played a role in the forfeiture of their country. Today, one wouldn't be surprised to see the descendants of all these families, most of them still prominent, drinking in a pub. They are professors and politicians and bureaucrats. One is even a former first lady. All claim to love Estonia, and nobody would ever question that loyalty or adoration. On occassion, it seems like the past never happened. Your best bet to even read about it is to go scrounging around used furniture stores for discarded Soviet history books. Today, 70 years later, it is June 1940 that seems like an alternative reality. It is the nightmarish faded black and whites of the takeover that drift into obscurity. And most young Estonians probably know little of this past, and are content not to know."
somewhat annoys me in that it's like concluding that Americans should share and deal with collective guilt over the activities of Benedict Arnold.

These individuals were never elected by the Estonian people in a free vote, thus they never were the legitimate representitives of the will of the Estonian people. So there is no reason to have "to deal with the local face of the June "revolution"", these people were just opportunistic traitors.

In June, the focus is instead is on Estonia's historic victory over the German Landeswehr at Võnnu on the eve of the summer solstice, ending 700 years of germanic colonial domination that started with the subjegation of ancient pagen Estonia when German crusaders defeated a force of 6000 Estonians and killed Lemitu in 1217.

Jim Hass ütles ...

Justin, it's been a long time since you triggered a flame war as good as this. As an outsider, perhaps I could steer the reality back into the conversation, before you post something more interesting.

Left wingers in the "West" turn a blind eye to the contempt for Easterners and subject folks. Even icons like Hegel and Marx can be found excusing slavery and eliminating "barbaric peoples". Hegel makes the argument against individual rights as limiting creativity of the state and folks' collective self expression.

Nazi's never won a majority vote, but were just the largest, most powerful party for a moment in the Reichstag. A lot of their policy outside of race was a continuation of trends in other parties. In fact Goering claimed to operate a consensus dictatorship.

Estonia is not the no tax neoliberal state they portray it to be. Taxes are lower elsewhere in Eastern Europe and welfare spending is higher than it was in the BRD after a few years of independence.

Perhaps our German friend should reread some of the speeches on Konrad Adenauer, for whom the autonomy and dignity of each individual was of paramount importance, to understand what is good and true about the German state today.

moevenort ütles ...

@ Jimm Hass:

1. I am not your "German friend" / if you see the necessity to define someone on "ethnic criteria, I don`t do it.

2. don´t teach me about my own history I know definately better then you will ever know. Adenauer is a controversial figure. he has always been. As I said I am East German, he was a West German chancelor when the part of Germany I was born had a different history. so what? apart from that: while Adenauer for some conservative people in Germany still might be a hero, for the others he is not. He is seen as an elitist old guy who had a rather limited understanding of democracy ( comparable with the Estonians elite understanding of democracy today) and helped a lot of former nazis to stay in their positions in state. thats not heroic, thats disgusting. It tells a lot about your democratic understandiing when you refer to Adenauer. If one of the west german chancelors has my admiration at all, then it is Willy Brandt who was the complete oposite to Adenauer. "daring more democracy", intorducing democratic participation apart from old elites, introducing social progress, a modern educational system and more social rights where the points on his agenda. this is light years away from the dusty, odl fashioned and elitist- style of democratic understanding the Estonian political elite claims. In this light, any dicusion about what is democracy between Estonian and German people makes few sense. There are light years seperating our understanding.
while for you democracy is not more then elections all four or five years, the German dicusion is about broad participation, postdemocracy issues and the social aspects of democracy. But I should not accuse you, you probably just don´t know it better. that comes when one has just pushed the "copy and past" function of what one has read in some nice textbooks about western democracy without having understood its essence.

viimneliivlane ütles ...

Giustino / why on earth would you want to move on and write a new blog when this one is still enjoying a heated and lively debate? I have now read all 254 Comments and I think there has been additional fuel added to the fire at least in every fifth or so Comment.

Thank you for opening a needed discussion, because, as we know, through the study of our history we understand ourselves better. In defense of all your Estonian commentators, I would like to say I think they are all innate sociologists and don’t have to apologize for anything, just study up a bit more. For instance, I have to ask further about Puu’s remark that Marx was married to a wealthy woman. Is that a fact? He then didn’t have a gripe about rich people? In our diverse post-structuralist world we (the good guys) see our greatest enemy in radical islam though I can’t think that I would like to share a home with one, never mind a bed.

(I learned in school that Marx accepted money from Engels who was from a wealthy family, however he refused ever to visit Engels at his home because he disapproved of the fact that Engels was living with a common-law wife, but that’s just an aside because I think as we try to understand morality and ideology we need to stay in the abstract. I am intentionally bringing up radical islam as being at the extreme of what we fear nowadays and are ready to go to war over - not people of color or jews for heaven’s sake!!!)

I have one observation I would like to make about Moevenort that I hope in some way may be helpful to other Western Europeans: You seem to be dipping into the love potion a bit heavily and it’s blurring your vision for sure – perhaps in needing to comprehend the massive effect the soviet era has had on people’s lives and academic efforts you are bending too far and making too many excuses. After all, redemption is the centerpiece of the Christian belief system, and, while Germany has redeemed itself in following a policy of full disclosure, apology for wrongs done, and making retributions, we are not getting the same from the Russians.

Redemption is not for us to grant but the Lord’s, and it is incumbent on the Russians to seek it, it seems to me, not for you to grant it. So please, lay off the love potion before you OD . . .

viimneliivlane ütles ...

On the other hand, it’s necessary to remain clear-sighted about what may be influencing the writing of Mart Laar and indeed to comment on that because future generations may misinterpret his efforts – seemingly some already are. When he joined the freedom movement in the late 1980s Laar was a history teacher, having gotten his education at Tartu University where, as everyone who has read Marju Lauristin’s memoirs ‘Red and Blue’ knows, there were but two oases of free thinking - the journalists around Professor Peegel, and the historians around Professor Vahtre. It goes without saying that in an educational institution in a totalitarian society ideology has to prevail over free thought so I wouldn’t belabor that point were it not that people seem to be forgetting it - what, a mere generation after the fact!

Point of fact, if Mart Laar’s books seem to be leaning too far in the other direction, then you must keep in mind what the forces were that he was working against – everything he has written about was absolutely forbidden during the occupation, which is to say, as if the Estonian Legion had never existed, as if the Battle at the Blue Hills had never existed, as if the deportations of 1941 had not existed, etc.

As far as his expository style goes, in the original language (I don’t know if you’re reading translations) I don’t find that it has the flavor of propaganda in the direction suggested. Rather, if he is at times emphatic it is because he is aware that he is righting the wrong done by soviet historians who were conditioned to dismiss everyone who got in the way of the big soviet machine as the bad guys who had to be done away with. Official soviet historians were not allowed to discuss the fact that people were caught up in this horrific ideological argument between two super-powers. It is for future generations of free thinkers to decide if ideology prevailed for Estonians during that time and how they dealt with the rock and the hard place they were caught between. Mart Laar’s books keep the issue alive.

I want to reassure you that his books are not danerous and you might be a bit over-sensitive. Just remember that Wagner was not to blame for the fact that Hitler fancied his work though many were quick to throw the blame there. Bless the grandmothers who can distinguish between cause and effect.

LPR ütles ...

Enough about nazis, eh?

How do you guys like the "Freedom Column" (Ansipi korgitser) scandal for a change?

That topic could be filed under "Kilplased." Funny as hell.

plasma-jack ütles ...

"Estonian skinheads don't decapitate foreigners."

There is however verbal and physical harassment. Which is just as bad.


Uh, doesn't the idea that verbal harassment is as bad as decapitation sound a bit, y'know, like trivializing decapitation?

plasma-jack ütles ...

I'm not just trying to be a 'tähenärija' - it has always seemed to me that people who have certain "Western values" really do think that wearing a nazi-themed shirt is a worse crime than actually killing a person. Thanks for illustrating this.

LPR ütles ...

Could Moevenort be one of them german leftist anarchists?

Read on ...

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100628-28147.html

Unknown ütles ...

LOL, that thelocal article is hilarious. And I could really imagine "him whose name is not to be spoken" as being one of the guys out for JUSTICE!

moevenort ütles ...

@Piimapukk: you can´t imagine how glad I am to live in country where the Kant`s ideads of enlightement at least had some positive effects.In your stoned brain, enlightement will probably never get a place. Finally and just for you: I am not at all whatever you might imagine in your sick brain. the truth is much more simple although it probably scares you: I am just an ordinary German citizen with ideas which come just from the middle of my society. It´s as said: light years are separating our societies. so just stay in your ancient village and let the rest of the world continue. May be in some decades you will be an attraction then at least for western tourists. you know, like the gorillas in the zoo^^

Unknown ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Unknown ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
viimneliivlane ütles ...

OK - at 265 Comments, if this is not a record in number of Comments for a very thought-provoking blog post, then at least it has to hold the record for amount of mud-slinging that Comments themselves can generate. I find myself wondering if this sort of sling-fest takes place on the floors of the EU assembling halls in Brussels and Strasbourg - but perhaps with a higher level of rhetoric. I had always thought it was a learned art form to couch your animosities and hostilities in well-appointed phrases and also that politicians learn this art form better than the rest of us. It´s refreshing and revealing to meet this in its raw form else we can´t get a grip on what the grudge is that Western Europe has against Eastern Europe and what the grudge is that Easern Europe has against Western Europe... follow my thinking here, anyone?

hullu poro ütles ...

'I am not at all whatever you might imagine in your sick brain. the truth is much more simple although it probably scares you: I am just an ordinary German citizen with ideas which come just from the middle of my society. It´s as said: light years are separating our societies. so just stay in your ancient village and let the rest of the world continue. May be in some decades you will be an attraction then at least for western tourists. you know, like the gorillas in the zoo' (moevenort)
We have to base our view of you on what you post here, and the arrogance, smugness and downright racism (there is no way to read that gorilla comparison above as anything but a racist slur) is just overwhelming. If you're not feeling the love, it's because you're an ugly troll.

LPR ütles ...

Moevenort. I may be a gorilla from a monkey village, but let me assure you that around here, we the untermench monkeys, we are pretty peaceful. Even when our permanent tourists run amok and break some windows in downtown to steal tampons and beer, we stay indoors scratching our balls.

Looks like it is quite different in your zoo.

How do you comment?

(Warning! Biting and spitting at zoo animals strictly prohibited.)

Unknown ütles ...

@moevenort
Typing the name of Kant does'nt make you any smarter since you clearly have no idea about the philosophy of Kant.

Why don't you actually read Kant for a change?

He said: "Of the three forms of the state, that of democracy is, properly speaking, necessarily a despotism, because it establishes an executive power in which "all" decide for or even against one who does not agree; that is, "all," who are not quite all, decide, and this is a contradiction of the general will with itself and with freedom."

LPR ütles ...

It's the 4th of July! Happy Yankee Jaanipäev to you Giustino!

Jim Hass ütles ...

May the spirit of Vaclav Klaus haunt moevenort forever.

viimneliivlane ütles ...

I find myself wondering how a blog post on the subject of the soviet takeover of Estonia turned into a forum on racial hatred. Probably because of the human need to demonize, that is, to render inhuman the people you can’t be bothered caring about. When the Iron Curtain fell in 1948 (at least that was the announcement of its existence though we know it was in place before that) the West pretty well had to write off that part of the world that fell behind it, so some part of this psychological posturing is understandable. But to deny readmission to the western world a good generation after the fall of communism tells me that the attitude about turning your back on the people of Eastern Europe is going to be in place for some time. And that just plain smacks of racial hatred.

Curiously, no commentator has compared racial hatred in Europe with the American experience, though most thoughtful people will have to agree that the experiment in democratic values has been going on longer there than anywhere else on earth. What the US has learned is that you can legislate equality, but you can’t really enforce it in people hearts, and, though Obama’s speeches touched peoples hearts during his campaign for the Presidency, wouldn’t you know, once he was President one white southern Congressman saw fit to heckle him with racial innuendo in the halls of Congress . . . an overt and purposive exhibit going beyond skinhead sightings by tourists more odious because it came from a lawmaker.

So I’m left wondering if the people of Eastern Europe are in for the long haul and if they will ever be able to overcome the stigma. I’m not optimistic about this because I know ‘there ain’t no justice’ but just for the record, I would like to recommend some reading for those seriously interested in the soviet takeover of Estonia, the original topic of this blog post, and that is on the subject of the secret clause of the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty of 1930 in which Germany and Russia agreed on a Sphere of Influence Plan so onerous that 70 years later it can still make your blood curdle: William J.H. Hough, III,
‘The Annexation of the Baltic States and its Effect on the Development of Law Prohibiting Forcible Seizure of Territory,’ New York Law School Journal of International and Comparative Law, Volume 6, Number 2, Winter 1985, 533 pp.

viimneliivlane ütles ...

Correction – as you all know, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty was signed in 1939, not 1930.

LPR ütles ...

„Vot lõpetan töö siin läänemaailmas, sõidan koju ja ostan endale seal Rjazani külje all väikese suvilaonni koos pisikese aiamaaga ja elan seal elu kuni lõpuni!“ mõtles heldimusega spiooni-Anna, jõudes oma Jaguariga oma Los Angelese äärelinnas asuva kolmekordse villa ette.

Spiooni-Anna ületas piiri täiesti tähelepandamatult. Sellest rääkisid vaid hommikused ajalehed.

...

Spiooni-Anna sisenes väikesesse söögimajja ja tellis tatrapudru ja klaasi teed. Noad - kahvlid olid otsas. Tuli süüa kätega. Üle hulga aja tundis Spiooni-Anna end taas Vene ohvitserina.

Spiooni-Anna mõtles. See meeldis talle ja ta mõtles veel.

Spiooni-Anna sisenes kokkulepitud baari. „Andke pool klaasi vodkat!“
„Vodka on otsas!“
„Siis klaas konjakit!“
„Konjak on otsas!“
Siis pudel õlut!“
„Õlu otsas!“
„Ahah,“ taipas Anna „sidemees on saabunud!“


.... samal ajal Brighton Beachil

Spiooni-Misha sai telegrammi. „Õnnitleme poja sünni puhul!“ Mishal tuli nostalgiast pisar silma. Juba kuusteist aastat ei olnud ta viibinud kodumaal.

moevenort ütles ...

I am prettty sure that some people here don`t like to arguments at all. especially not if they are coming from "evil foreigners" who of course just want to colonize poor little Estonia. It seems to be a widepread illness especially among Estonian political elite to think that they know everything better than the rest of the world anyway. But don`t you listen to your own critical minds neither?
again Kattel with an intersting interview. headline about Estonian politics:

"people should be protesting on the streets", quote: "Estonian economy is on a suicide course and essentially a pyramid scheme to benefit the elite, says Rainer Kattel, professor of Tallinn Technical University."

the article can be founf here:

http://www.bbn.ee/article/2010/01/25/Rainer_Kattel_people_should_be_protesting_on_the_streets

Joshua ütles ...

Wow. 280 comments huh?

I think Andres has a point when he says: "The opposing sides in this discussion are not talking about the same thing."

And that's why I decided to rant about something completely different. Cause, why the hell not, amirite?

"The eugenic message was well reeived in Estonia, a society in which the new constitution of 1938 included the notion of „socially harmful indigent persons.“ A breakthrough for the eugenicists occured in 1934, when the Estonian state introduced an authoritarian political regime, in which the propagandist rhetoric of pro-natalism and eugenics flourished. The new system known as „managed democracy,“ and the consolidation of „national entirety“ (rahvusterviklikkus) became the prime goal of the state, and ideal rooted in biological understanding of society; namely, the nation as a living organism.

...

A prerequisite of the authoritarian state was the complete subordination of all members of society in the name of „national entirety.“ Eugenicists and eugenic organizations actively supported the paternalist, solidarist and authoritarian system in the Estonian case. The state, in turn, made full use of science and medicine in order to increase its authority and legitimacy.

...

The eugenic movement was well received by the public in interwar Estonia. This is partly explained by the syndrome of the „small nation's self-perception,“ and accompanying fears of extinction. Thus, official nationalism, especially during the years of the authoritarian state, became synonymous with the concept of a „national entirety.“ Estonian society was mobilized to fulfill a biological task – to breed. In this context, the Estonian Eugenics Society became a leading authority on demographic matters and public health, and was used to encourage the increase of the population. Eugenics became a social mechanism uniting the popular beliefs of Estonian society."

Excerpts from "Blood and Homeland: Eugenics and Racial Nationalism in Central and Eastern Europe 1900-1940."

Gotta just hate states and their control mechanisms, right? I wonder if I can find the piece which talked about how the First Republic used the Lutheran Church as a tool of social and mind control. And thus completing the picture of one big scary society.

Only 20 comments left til 300. We can do it!

Joshua ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Joshua ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Unknown ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Unknown ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Unknown ütles ...

Eugenics and right-wing authoritarianism? Sweden anyone?

"In Sweden, the Sterilization Act of 1934 provided for the voluntary sterilization of some mental patients. The law was passed while the Swedish Social Democratic Party was in power, though it was also supported by all other political parties in Parliament at the time, as well as the Lutheran Church and much of the medical profession.[118] From about 1934 to until 1975, Sweden sterilized more than 62,000 people, with Herman Lundborg in the lead of the project.[119] Sweden sterilized more people than any other European state except Nazi Germany."

"The Swedish government inquiry found that about 30.000 of the 62.000 were sterilised under some form of pressure or coercion. As was the case in other programs, ethnicity and race were believed to be connected to mental and physical health."

The evil work of social democrats... =P

viimneliivlane ütles ...

Can Do – we can hit 300 Comments if everyone thinks back what it was they wanted to say when the mud-slinging got hot and heavy... I for one missed a lot of innuendo that I need explained.

I have the impression that the subject of the Comments so far has been around colonization – pro and con. Trade, culture, new religions – all sorts of new ideas are brought by the colonialists, but there can also be undesirable side effects (like skinheads and commies) – who knows better than the Estonians who have had to endure both German and Russian intrusions.

Right now I’m reading Mart Laar’s latest book (with globetrotter Tiit Pruuli as co-author this time) ‘Ida-Preisimaa’ which is a truly sad book, because what I knew previously about the indigenous people of East Prussia was that they spoke a language related to Lithuanian and Latvian, and that their image lives on in the Helga paintings of Andrew Wyeth.

I’m taking a guess that moevenort’s grandmother was of the 88% German population of East Prussia as the indigenous people were wiped out in the13-14 C. Hers would be an interesting story to hear. Colonization has such a bad rap nowadays and it is probably well earned. We are still aghast at super-powers staying silent as Russia nibbles away at Georgia. People who are pro-colonization have a lot of explaining to do.

I googled ‘moevenort blog’ and indeed there is a blog established in February 2009 but I can’t find any writing – can we help with this?

Anonüümne ütles ...

Well I don't know about the Estonians that were left behind, but most of the Estonians who were able to make it out and create a government in exile (whose decendents some of the current people in Estonian are being mean to cough cough), were very liberal.They liked modern art, went to highscools that were 75 percent reform jewish, went dancing on American Bandstand with people of all ethincities, went on interacial dates. And had lunches for the Junior League. The Junior League didn't do anything bad.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Also, Joshua, as far as I can see the Lutheran Church was only responsible for really nice raffles and food spreads.

Anonüümne ütles ...

But if you grew up in a society where all the churches were made into movie theaters I could get how you wouldn't like church...especially if they showed like Sex in City 2... that movie could turn anyone into a non-believer.

Anonüümne ütles ...

Look at all the nice things the Junior League is doing

LPR ütles ...

I cannot think of one church in Estonia having being made into a movie theatre or anything else of such sort. I've heard that in Russia they used to make some of them into gyms and warehouses, etc.

Maybe I am overlooking some well known example where a church was made into a movie theatre.

plasma-jack ütles ...

Yeah, you do. Katariina kirik. And nothing wrong with that.

plasma-jack ütles ...

(temporarily, though)

viimneliivlane ütles ...

Forget Kant – you really want to have a closer look at the thought development Heidegger through Nietzsche to get a handle on how such a venerable institution as the Lutheran Church of Sweden could go along with eugenics in the 1930s.

It seems to me that to pillory Hitler is fine and good but does not explain what was going on in the minds of people of his time. We know that a great number of people in England admired what the national socialists were doing in Germany, and that pretty well until the Germans started bombing the dickens out of them. We know that the Jewish people in Germany themselves were caught by surprise by Kristallnacht, which, we have to remind ourselves, occurred as late as November 1938. Jews started asking how this could happen in the land of Schiller and Beethoven. Hitler had a good five years to gain wide popular support by investing heavily in public works to bring Germany out of the Great Depression. I don’t wonder that people were otherwise distracted.

Further, I have the impression that people sat around discussing the works of great philosophers as casually as we may talk about great movies we’ve seen (Casablanca, anyone) so I am not surprised that the idea of a perfect society populated by perfect people caught on and also possibly offered a solution to war and poverty, both of which were very much on people’s minds in post WWI Europe.

Curious why people today can get so hotheaded about the topic – could it be there is some kind of resurgence? Yes, people are concerned about the possible abuse of the gnome project and well they should be. I don’t know if we are any less arrogant today than 70 years ago, and I don’t mean only the skinheads and commies. There's got to be a East Europe/West Europe tie-in here somewhere . . .

Mart ütles ...

moevenort, that's about second or third time you have quoted Kattel (including the previous comments section).

I do not know your field of profession, but I hope you understand that economics is a field of conflicting theories, where the validity of one over another cannot actually be proven.

Now, Kattel is a good researcher and brings up many valid points, based on the theories that he subscribes to.

In the Estonian media, however, Kattel has carved himself a niche of "anti-establishment standing". I mean that he is the "go-to guy" when you want a critical piece on current policy, or a conflicting opinion to put next to a favourable opinion. Sort of like Ivar Raig on European issues.

I personally don't like Kattel or Raig, because I feel that they have long moved from academic pieces into editorial or opinion pieces. Still, such "anti-establishment" positions are necessary for us to question our positions every once in a while and not to allow them to become dogmas.

I guess my point was that critics are necessary but the way you are presenting Kattel and saying "you dumb barbarians are all doomed" doesn't cast either him or yourself in positive light.

viimneliivlane ütles ...

Can Kant and Kattel fit inside the same mindset? Kattel's reputation as a credible economist is in question if he chooses to become a prophet of doom at the same time that Estonia has gotten a heads up for joining the eurozone after going through a process which involves intense scrutiny by really crackerjack economic analysts.

moevenort ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
moevenort ütles ...

without further comment an abstract from the interview with Kattel. regardeless what you might think of him peronally, I guess the content is at least worth to be discussed

"Estonian economy is on a suicide course and essentially a pyramid scheme to benefit the elite, says Rainer Kattel, professor of Tallinn Technical University.

The following are abstracts of the interview published in Pealinn last week where Kattel says that we, the Estonian people, are mentally in a prison and wonders what will happen if we don't break out.

Q: In your opinion, do Estonians crave for more solidarity? Song festivals seem to indicate it.A: In its essence solidarity is political, but song festivals are supposed to be strictly non-political. We use national song festivals to relieve stress, but do nothing to change our own life. In this respect a song festival has a negative impact on us. Instead of sitting in a song festival we should go to Toompea as people to protest and change things. After all, politics is full of conflicts. So a few windows get broken, so what? Such a protest is certainly not rioting or undermining law and order. The main thing is that it would give us an opportunity to fight for our beliefs and to express them. In this meaning, street protests are very important and show that the democracy is mature and that people are no longer afraid to express their opinion.

Q: But public protests are discouraged in Estonia?A: What is strange is that in one of his speeches even President of Estonia essentially urged the people to give up their right to express their opinion, saying that such activities could be linked to the so-called Bronze Night (...) Changing tensions into a seemingly apolitical activity enables certain elite to show that all is be well in the state. In other words, we are breathing as one, but live in totally different social environments and have very different possibilities for self-realization. To reduce the mental space around us in such a way is both cynical and very naive.

Q: Who should be the first to go to the streets?A: We have over 100,000 unemployed. Wages in the service sector are being cut left and right. Since it is very easy for companies to cut wages, the position of employees gets weaker and weaker. Workers must be protected not be guaranteeing them high redundancy fees, but guaranteeing them rights.

Q: Do you see signs that voters are becoming more leftist?A: This is clearly necessary and the first sign of this change is the current coalition of Centre Party and Social Democrats in Tallinn.(...) I see that Estonia's political and economic elite clearly does not want to see the society change towards left or centre-left. Even some businessmen are warming to the idea of re-introducing corporate income tax or switching to progressive tax (...) Instead of supporting the social sphere, the current coalition is so keen on balanced budget and euro adoption and make very many sacrifices (...)

Q: Why haven't Estonian economists protested already years ago against such questionable economic policies as tax cuts and lean public sector?A: Firstly, many economists were intoxicated by Estonia's success story (...) When someone mentions the need to increase the state role, the critics start claiming that it is an effort to bring back planned economy. Ansip has personally very strongly suppressed any criticism in this regard. The fact why there has never been a centre-left government in Estonia is that Centre Party has been demonized for years and confrontation has been personal."

moevenort ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
moevenort ütles ...

part II:

"Q: Voters who for 20 years have been victims of economic myths probably cannot let these myths go. They believe politicians who preach a lean state, but wonder why we don't have enough kindergartens, medical assistance or good education and why we don't have such welfare states as in Scandinavia.
A: We are in a sort of mental trap because Estonians don't know alternatives. For Estonians, an alternative to current policy would be perhaps Communism, so there is no alternative. Actually there are tens of options of how to change the borders between the public and private sector (...)

Q: What are some of the most common economic myths that should be overruled?
A: The first myth is that flat-rate income tax system where everybody pays by the same rate is good. But there is a major difference whether you pay 20% income tax on 100,000 kroons or 10,000 kroons.
The second myth is that tax cuts revive the economy since it is true only at certain conditions. The third myth is the claim that the more there is global money supply, the more the economy will grow. It has not been proven and too much free capital creates crisis situations and instability.
Also it seems that exemption from corporate income tax is no longer working. You cannot confront the state with the market since there will never be free market and state will always be interfering.
There have been so many misguided economic policies that they have changed people's understanding and affected Estonia's current development.

Q: What will happen if there is no change to the left in Estonia in the near future?
A: We will become even more marginalized and more and more of the society will impoverish and the wealth and social gap will increase further. Fortunately for us, we have rich Finnish neighbours who travel to us. We have the capital town that keeps part of the Estonian economy always running. Estonia will remain a place that is a good place to live for tens of thousands of young people, but what about the rest?"

Doris ütles ...

about Kattel and all nay-sayers: the first thing you must ask yourself is: what is their gain? what do they get from saying what they say? the most obvious answer is attention and validation that other people agree with what they say. But after a while if they're still parroting the same old same old anti-government things it's clear that there must also be some monetary gain. Otherwise they'd be poor now and have to focus on actually working rather than talking. So the question now is: where is Kettel's monetary gain? From the things he says it sounds suspiciously like KERA-logic, which - no matter how valid in onther countries - has seriously damaged itself by incessant scandals and mudslinging contests in Estonia. Even if I agreed to the general idea, I wouldn't let those people near my money under any circumstances, it'll probably just end up paving Savisaar's driveway.

Sometimes it's not about the idea, it's about the way it's implemented. Take for example the Dutch experiment of the ov-chipcard. In principle an excellent idea: one card that works for all forms of public transport regardless of operator. You could take a Sebe bus from Tartu to Tallinn, then hop on Edelaraudtee train and head to Laitse to pick berries, no hassle with cash, one simple swipe when getting in, one swipe when getting out. In practice however, it's a torture mechanism from HELL. It's as if it was specifically designed to drive every single person who wants to use public transport violently insane.

the flat tax rate: lots of economists think this is a bad idea. But the way it's implemented in Estonia... it works. Can't guarantee that it would work like this in all countries though. So why mend it if it's not broken? Or rather, why mend it if 75% of the electorate consistently says it's not broken?

the "teine eesti" issue: that one most definitely is broken and needs mending. But I think everyone agrees that there is no miracle fix (you can't just make everyone the same. it's been tried. it didn't work.), it's going to have to be a looooong and probably painful process until the scissors within Estonia aren't so bad and the scissors between Estonia and Western Europe have disappeared.

moevenort ütles ...

quite interesting are the comments on the website where the Kattel interview was published. the view expressed there concerning the current state of affairs in estonia sometimes differ significantly from the comments here. just one example:

quote:

"Basically Estonia is not a democracy.

The status quo is maintained by a bunch of right wing nationalist cronies, strong armed by police thugs.

No independent judicial system really exists, and the people are as cowed as sheep, so no real debate or even demonstrations are allowed.

When something goes wrong it's always someone else's fault or because of the Soviet union before or Russia today or some minority, or the damn foreigners.

Failing that they start bleating, "We are the best anyway", written in a language no-one else in Europe can understand.

It's a nasty mixture of inferiority complex, paranoia and xenophobia.
Absolutely the worst atmosphere I have met anywhere else in the EU at present."

without any further comment again.

moevenort ütles ...

"the flat tax rate: lots of economists think this is a bad idea. But the way it's implemented in Estonia... it works. Can't guarantee that it would work like this in all countries though. So why mend it if it's not broken? Or rather, why mend it if 75% of the electorate consistently says it's not broken?"

it works for whom? for the majority of the people of rather for a small income elite? or is it may be one reason why the gap between rhich and poor according to UN Gini Index in Estonia i one of the highest in Europe?

Mart ütles ...

moevenort, I could write up a response for the points Kattel has brought up.

But first, do you actually agree with the hateful comment you posted? There is not one shred of truth in it. In fact, it is very close to the ridiculous "apartheid" claims made last year by a Finnish ultra-left group (Hietanen, Bäckman et al) and the phrase "right-wing cronies" only reinforces that impression.

I'm starting to believe that you are just looking to validate your own terrible opinion on Estonia instead of looking for facts.

Mart ütles ...

Oh, and about Gini index: I don't think that being level with, Spain, Italy and the United Kingdom (with Switzerland not far ahead) somehow qualifies as a terrible thing.

Tell me, moevenort, do you berate the British for their inequality? What about the Swiss?

Doris ütles ...

I think you're confusing social issues with fiscal issues. Like I said, there is no miracle fix for the inequalities in (Estonian) society. Taking from the wealthy and giving to the poor does not help the poor proportional to the amount that's taken from the wealthy. It only pads the bureaucracy.

talking from the state economics point of view, it's much better to help the poor help themselves. it's the middle class that's important and that are paying the most quantity of taxes. So therefore in a flat tax country it is imperative that most people be middle class and happy about it.

The main difference between Reform and IRL (the way I see it) is their approach to how to help reduce the differnce in living standards without punishing people for doing well. IRL wants to do this via education and Reform wants to focus more on private enterprise. these two aims combined would ideally result in a highly educated society where anyone can be an entrepreneur and hire highly skilled workers and pay them well.

Ideally.

There are lots of smart and enterprising people in Estonia. Unfortunately there are also some who are for one reason or another neither. I think usually it's not the smart thing, it's the enterprising thing. Especially among the younger generation, there's a feeling of entitelement... by far not everyone, oviously, but much more than I would feel comfortable. People think that they can get a management position straight out of high school, just because it was like that for their parents during the turbulent times of the 90's. Never mind that in the 90's their parents started from scratch, from a position that was far below the Western European average. It's been 20 years, right, we should be as rich, as smart, as comfortable. right?

insta-rich doesn't even work in movies.

Changing the social paradigm that it's normal and ok to drink oneself to oblivion every single weekend takes time. integrating the Russian minority into the Estonian society in a way that does not antagonise the two takes effort and time. Trust me, thisgs ARE changing for the better, it's just a slow progress.

mangimages5 ütles ...

i can't find any information on life in Estonia from 1940-1991. I also cannot find any relatives from my parents' large families. last year while in Estonia, I was told that any surviving relatives were not interested in meeting me.Kind of hard to make a documentary on family reunion without any help. I need some advice. Reading "Sentence: Siberia" and "Carrying Linda's Stones" got me going on this ardeous journey.

plasma-jack ütles ...

just a few random links for you: Estonian history in pictures (via Estonian Institute)

Art of the Baltics: The Struggle for Freedom of Artistic Expression under the Soviets, 1945-1991 (via Amazon)

Estonian Life Stories (that one might be helpful)

a book on Estonian animation


Estonian literary magazine

plasma-jack ütles ...

And then there's novels, of which Sofi Oksanen's "Purge" would be the most well-known recently

viimneliivlane ütles ...

mangimages5 - it's hard to believe that your relatives in Estonia don't want to make contact as in many cases it's been the other way around. There are various things you can do via the internet to find out what happened to everybody, like see if they were deported, ask the local gov't about disposition of family property, etc. Sometimes disposition of family real estate is the basis for not wanting to make contact so you have to be up front that you don't intend to lay claim to anything. I've always found that the direct approach, of arriving on the doorstep and knocking on the door is the best method for making contact rather than sounding out the grapevine.

If you like to spend time reading in the library there is a host of material on quality of life during the occupation - this of course presupposes you know how to read between the lines.

Unknown ütles ...

As a fellow "Westerner" I cannot let Moevenort uncommented. He is doing exactly the same as he accuses his opponents of doing: excluding people with different views from the "group". He accuses his Estonian opponents of regarding Estonians with opposing views as not real Estonians. But the many Estonians with views that are different from his own, are in his view not real Europeans, but half-civilized Eastern Europeans who are inferior too his own Germany, as even the Eastern part supposedly has reached the same level of democratic development as the Western.
That follows actually nazi (and probably even older) tradition: the nazi propaganda service did try to make the Germans (and the rest of the world) believe that first and foremost it was the wild half-civilized Eastern Europeans who were eager to kill the jews and the civilized Germans had to "solve" the "problem" in a more orderly way.
As I Dane I do consider that the nazi and communist crimes against humanity are indeed comparable. And it's my impression that it is quite common view in Denmark, except for the left wing part of the population. Maybe it's not so in Germany, which is quite understandable given the sometimes over-eager "Vergangenheitsbewältigung", but still I doubt that it would be a criminal view as well as I doubt the undocumented information that Laar's books would be considered as criminal nazi propaganda in Germany.
By the way, Germany has chosen, in its "best" totalitarian traditions to criminalize people based only on their views, not their acts. Whereas in many other Western countries, including Denmark, those stupid idiots denying holocaust are just ignored, in Germany they are prosecuted. While I have some understanding for that given Germany's history, I do believe that the best you can do with such idiots as the holocaust deniers is just to ignore them (since arguing with facts against them probable wouldn't lead anywhere.)
The topics discussed are interesting indeed, I do to some extent consider the holocaust as unique, because never before or after has death been industrialized to such an extent. But I think that it's uniqueness is the way it was well-organized and therefore "effective" as many other activities run by Germans. Had the Soviets (Russians) been more well organized, they could have done the same I think. Also of course is the reason for collecting people destined for killing different, whereas in Nazi territory race would be the deciding factor, it seems to be more random whether you would be considered "enemy of the people" in Soviet territory. But does that make communism better than nazism ? Not in my opinion.
Some Estonians, while not being holocaust deniers still consider nazi crimes to be less significant than communist crimes, a view that I of course find very wrong. But it's a expectable reaction if your own nation's sufferings are constantly diminished by outsiders telling you that somebody else's sufferings were much worse.
Certainly the way Moevenort presents his view doesn't help towards better understanding of opposing views, rather it broadens the differences when your own views are presented as the correct, civilized "Western" views, while opposing viewpoints are just the result of "underdeveloped" Eastern mindsets.
I wonder if Moevenort is a deliberate "troll" or if he is just a "Besserwisser Ossie" with an inferiority complex caused by the Besserwisser Wessies, that he now lives out on other Eastern Europeans.

viimneliivlane ütles ...

So, to sum, Mads Michael, can you say 'Never Again' with any confidence if Russian atrocities go unnoted, unpublicized, unpunished?

Unknown ütles ...

Jõvā päva, viimneliivlane!

First of all, I think it is important to always distinguish between Russian and Soviet.

I think in any case that we can say "never again", at least for EU countries including Estonia quite confidently. But of course recognizing communist atrocities on a more or less equal level with the nazi ones will enable us to say "never again" even more confidently.

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