pühapäev, juuli 15, 2007

Those Hot-Blooded Estonian Women

No matter what topic of conversation you enter into it, chances are, if you are a foreign guy, you will be sucked into the vortex of discussing Estonian womanhood at length. Most young gentlemen under 25 revel at the chance to chatter on about their sojourns to and fro nightclub with Triinu and Piret and Kaili.

But when you actually marry one of this northern specie the questioning grows more tiring. "Yes," you want to say, "I know they are attractive." 'Yes," you carry on, "they are very stylish", "Ok," you concur, "they might be the most beautiful women in the world." It gets to the embarassing point that you realize that some people still consider women to be some kind of property, and your Estonian gal to be ... a trophy wife.

Taken in the context of paging through Kroonika magazine, one could see where this idea comes from. Kroonika is a catalog of platinum blonde Barbies, usually straddling some kind of masculine-related item, if not an actual man, and waxing on about what kind of attributes they look for in their guy. A jaunt across Tallinn will leave you feeling equally stimulated as you spy young ladies wearing cowboy boots and hoop-earrings -- a sure sign that they are ovulating and desperately want you to help make up for the lack of suitable males in the Estonian population tonight.

So to indulge all of you in what you want to talk about anyway, I thought I'd address a few of those too frequently asked questions about Estonian ladies.

Why Do Foreign Men Marry Estonian Women?

Beyond these superficial glimpses at the opposite sex, there is the real phenomenon of foreign boys shacking up with Estonian girls. Some people wonder why. I'll tell you why. Because the traveling-guy-meets-exotic-foreign-female-and-settles-down-to-sire-a-multitude-of genetically-diverse-children parable is the oldest tale in the book. Ever since Fletcher Christian spied some random Polynesian teenager, mariners like ourselves have been doing it.

But why we stop in Estonia? Why not proceed through Latvia and then conquer all of Belarus? Free Wifi. No, actually, Estonian women are not alone in this regard. Across Europe Americans and Brits and others routinely partner with whomever they can. When I was living in Denmark I met two gents at a bar who were Americans that had left to evade the draft in the 1960s. They had runaway to Malmö of all places to marry Swedes and eat lingonberry jam for the rest of their lives. So I guess that is my first response: Estonia is not unique. This happens everywhere.

That being said, Estonians are amenable to marriage. They have a liberal, "eh, what the heck" approach to it and see it as a manifestation of romantic love, as opposed to the US where it has been viewed over the past 20 years or so as a phase in life that occurs sometime after a big promotion at work. In the Soviet ice age, Estonians got married young so that they could move out of their parents' homes. These days many still marry young because, "eh, what the heck" coupled sometimes by a loud "oops" and a surge in hormones.

In this context of ladies that aren't afraid to get married and wandering guys that are looking for a place to put down their roots, it shouldn't be surprising that so many foreign guys wash up on Estonian soil. A final factor is that Estonia is 54 percent female and 46 percent male, and of that 46 percent, a good chunk are either drunks or Eurovision fans, leaving the market wide-open for synergistic coupling.

How's Your Girl?


It's hard to stereotype any person. What one can do is relate their experiences and hope they jive with those of others. My Estonian naine likes to start her mornings with the sound of her mobile phone saying, "on aeg arkata, kell on seitse!". Then the water is put to boil, then the coffee, the sweet nectar of Estonian life, is first brewed. We have been drinking Löfbergs Lila these days. My naine says it tastes as good as melted ice cream.

The most cherished of breakfasts is some kind of porridge, perhaps tatrahelbed. The Estonian woman's culinary universe is flavored by porridges and jams and keefir and Kalevi komm. These foods are fine. The ones I find worrisome are maksapasteet, varieties of dried fish, and jellied meats. Whenever some person is carrying on about the Estonian beauties, I don't think he is thinking of one with a lump of sült hanging from the corner of her mouth.

Estonian women know how to live life au natural. Mine dreams of days spent in forests picking mushrooms and berries and maybe a swim in a pristine countryside lake, preceeded by sauna. Tonight we ate seenakaste with potatoes and kurgid. It was so good. I washed it down with an A. Le Coq Pilsner and chased that with a plum tart. Then, as I lay on the doorstep of a fine slumber, my naine appeared with a cup of freshly brewed coffee to nurse me back to health and put me back to work.

They Who Wear The Pants

In Estonian society, women allegedly run things. This appears to be true, although our president and prime minister are not women. But in day to day life, it is the females that are organizing and the men who are obliging. With the advent of both mobilephone and Internet, my Estonian woman can order her day into a multitude of meetings that flow seamlessly into one another, complete with time calculated to get from one meeting place to another.

As a male, duties are assigned to you because the organizer has a special way she wants things done and its best not to take it upon yourself to, say, fold the laundry because that laundry might be dirty or intended for other usage. The real trainwreck occurs when several duties are assigned simultaneously (wash up dishes, take out garbage) and as you are finishing washing your last plate, you are asked, "How come you forgot to take out the garbage?" Don't even bother trying to explain yourself.

Estonian men are supposed to be like MacGyver. Like Lennart Meri, they should be ready to spring into action at any time with screwdriver in hand, fixing leaky pipes and roofs along the way with tree bark and some manure. As a foreign guy, your lack of handiness might make you into something resembling a male model. You just sit around and read the newspaper, relying on 'real Estonian men' to figure out what is wrong with your car.

Worry not. If you have two arms and two legs, the chances are good that your Estonian woman will find something useful for you to do. And, as they say in construction, showing up is 90 percent of the job.

Maarahvas

If you really want to know your Estonian naine, it is a good idea to get a sense of where she is coming from. Most likely it's from a small corner of of Eestimaa that ends in a suffix like '-vere' [Eg: Adavere] or '-tsi' [Eg. Muratsi]. In this place you will meet her mother and perhaps even her grandmother or great aunts. Don't be surprised if Mrs. Claus, the spouse of Jõuluvana. comes to mind upon meeting vanaema.

Vanaema knows all sorts of tricks. She knows when is the best time to plant cucumbers and how to make bread and how to make a whole litter of kittens disappear with a bucket, a burlap sack, and a rock. The current generation of vanaemad in Estonia have lived through thick and thin. Soviets, Nazis, Soviets, Uno Loop, Collapse of the Ruble -- they have seen it all. Yet when they talk, they probably prefer to gossip about village life. Is somebody pregnant? Did somebody buy a new car? How much did it cost? Vanaema knows.

Sometimes it is hard to believe that the girls in VanillaNinja will one day become those old ladies you see walking the streets of any small village in Estonia, but genetics are a safe bet. So take a good look at your Eesti vanaema. Because chances are, if you stay together, this person closely resembles the one you will be sleeping with in 50 years.

Her Other Boyfriend

If you are married to or are in partnership with an Estonian female, the chances are that you may develop arvuti-envy. As she scrolls through blog.tr.ee or the online version of Eesti Ekpress, you might feel pangs of jealousy as she makes expressions of surprise, or even laughs, while you passively await her attention. She'll assure you that she is just paying her taxes, but in reality she is engrossed in a debate over child rearing in Perekool.

As talented and handsome as you are, there are some ways in which you will always be outdone by the Internet. The only way to handle this is to get even. And maybe even get your own blog.

Noh, mis te mõtlete sõbrad? Kas eesti naised ongi kõige ilusam naised maailmas?

46 kommentaari:

Andres ütles ...

I think you should be happy that she browses sensible sites like that and doesn't sit on rate.ee or orkut or smth 24/7.

Juan Manuel ütles ...

Oh! I am the first! Well, well, two days ago I spent the entire night partying with three cute (ilusad, targad ja osavad) Estonian girls (I wrote about it in my blog but it is not really funny to read it in my primitive Estonian). So I'll write here my impressions of Estonian girls.

First of all, I always like to stress that I am not the type of southern guy that came to Estonia just because of the blond girls. When I first came to Estonia I knew nothing about it and most of my favorite Estonian friends are not even blond. Some of them may look more Spanish than I.

This being said, I am already missing Nina and Helen, whom I met at about 8 PM and saw for the last time as they graciously walked down the street at 6 AM. One explanation for this is that they were indeed very nice. You don't want nice people to go away, you want to be with the people you like.

Another explanation is language. I really like learning languages and right now the language I want to learn is Estonian. I am now used to the language of newspapers and open-eds, but conversation is something different. Having the chance to talk in Estonian for one night and to see that somehow I understood them and they understood me was awesome. It meant that all the work I have done in the last five months (learning vocabs) has led to something.

Ok, I am now mostly thinking about these two girls but I don't know if I could say something about all Estonian women in general. The girls I met in Tartu were very nice, and yes, very good looking. My Estonian tibi was cute and I am still convinced that she is a very good person. I always like to complain about Estonian girls being ükskõiksed but that is probably not quite true.

By the way, it turned out that one of the girls I met the other night was indeed the very same girl that told me years ago that "sul on ilusad silmad" was the only thing we ever manage to learn ;) But as I said, Estonian girls are indeed very nice.

All right, I still wanted to stress that I am missing Helen's voice, but I guess it is time to let another readers have their say ;)

Puu ütles ...

JM don't call someone a tibi, it's ugly.
Sorry to go all Andrea Dworkin on you.

I think that estonian female attractiveness has been a big factor in the country being around at all. If you go back as far as Peter the Great, his wife and apparently the only person he really got along with was Estonian. Surely this helped the estonians, in fact they would have no presidential palace if it wasn't for the estonians....

I think that Guistino is rad and I don't think it is going to be a problem with his family.Love is I think always an exception, no matter what the circumstances, it's rare it happens you follow it if you are smart or brave. But we have highly consumer culture in which love is a chocolate or shoes.So things get confusing. I think that in all mixed marriages there can be this initial objectification and exotic fantasy of the other that doesn't stand the test of time. There are a lot aging couples( the most famous being Woody Allen and whatever her names is Korean step daughter, oh and Rupert Murdoch who went from Estonian wife to asian wife) in New York where you see the man is like this old white dude and the lady is this lovely asian girl and with some of those couples especially I feel like looking at them whatever pulled them together in the first place isn't there any more.I saw this couple with this drooling old man and a pretty healthy middle aged asian women who was obviously married to him sitting there in her chanel watching him drool into his soup and you could just see her thinking was this the glamorous american life I dreamed of?With my parents it's not that bad. But there can be the real sense of people never really connecting. One looks for the exotic innocent with simple old world values the other for the land of blue jeans and sky scrapers and good cars. What makes me a little sad however in the case of my own mother, is that there can really be a physical ( on the side of my father) and material social status connection( on the side of my mother) and a promise of intellectual fulfillment(on the side of my mother) but the only one who really understands the two of them is me. Marriage between two different cultures makes for crazy children if both people decide to retain their individual identities ( as my parents for the most part have). If you want to have sex with someone because they are exotic and pretty, use protection and knock yourself out,if you are so insecure and bad with women that the women in your own country won't sleep with you and you have to go somewhere where your currency is stronger to get laid ( at least 60 percent or more of tourism in Riga seems to operate on this principle) well that seems to be the way of the world, but if you want to have a meaningful relationship, then you sort of have to leave the identities at the door. I think it can be very hard to do. I see it with my parents. I would imagine if any of the Johns (how appropriate they are Johns) from north of England decided to really have something more the the experience of a modelesque girl paying attention to them, it would be very very difficult because what is driving them in the first place is insecurity. So is what's driving the girls ( except in their case the insecurity is economic).

Thats not to say love can't happen, though. I just find it unlikely to happen in the atmosphere of a frat house. Obviously it does. But love is never really based on differences and exoticness, they might be there but as side notes. I think.
Sometimes you develop your own language with another person and then it really doesn't matter.

Thredahlia ütles ...

Thank you for a good morning laugh (to accompany my second cup of coffee) - haven't read something so well said in days :P

Jens-Olaf ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Jens-Olaf ütles ...

puu, I have to disagree: 'I am not convinced' about what you've said. First, I am male and I've never made the first step, I believe in gender equality. This reduces your chances as male to match dramatically. But I could wait. When I was close to age 30 I've met a Korean. After 14 years we moved to Korea with our children one month ago. She is older, I've raised the children and did the part time jobs (changed role). She decided to move. Asia is not 'Asia' anymore.
I was in Estonia in 1991/1992, I was single then. As I said, I've never done the first step. During half in year in Estonia nothing happened. I had the' dollars'. So I know the Estonian women are different. A least the female generation 10 years ago.

3:24 PM

Juan Manuel ütles ...

Puu, you sound so pessimistic. Try to see the other side of life.

But anyway, thanks for the correction, actually I heard the word tibi the other night and I thought it was possitive (like cute girl or sth). Now I know it is not :)

In many cases your explanation of inter-cultural marriages does not apply. Ok, if you have a 50 year old rich German guy and a 22 year old Estonian (or Spanish) girl, then yes, perhaps the Deutsche Mark played a role, but when it comes to two penniless 21 year old students, nobody really cares if you have euros or a Schengen passport. That is not the way it is. You are both thinking on something different.

I think that having different cultural backgrounds may make a relationship a) more interesting and b) easier, since if ever anyone makes a false step, then you can always say "it's the culture, Estonians / Spaniards are so passionate".

in upstate NY ütles ...

I have to agree with Puu. As part of the exile Estonian community, it was very hard to find someone to really connect with, until I found my spouse who is half-Estonian.

I have spent my life as a fish out of water and lerning how to relate culturally to everyone around me here in the USA. In general, I find there is some overlap in areas because of my efforts (not theirs) but rarely full understanding.

But it is truly nice to have found someone who truly understands what I mean without explaining and over-explaining. What I say resonates with him on a truly deep level, probably because we have many of the same cultural touchstones.

When traveling in Europe, I was shocked at my experience of culture shock in France and even England.

Going to Estonia, however, was like going home.

That is not to say that people from separate cultures cannot connect or that people from the same culture always connect. Certainly, my two Estonian parents never connected in any meaningful way.

It's just that so many hormones are involved when first falling in love that it takes about two years before one knows whether one also likes the other half of a couple. It just really helps a marriage if you still like that person after the initial experience of Cloud Nine begins to abate.

Wahur ütles ...

Linguistic comment to Juan:
'tibi' is positive in a sense that they are generally (very) good-looking. The other side of the coin is that being good-looking is more or less all that tibi is good at. According to the popular understanding they spend most of their daytime in solariums and spas and nighttime in clubs, actively in search of a next male who would sponsor their lifestyle for a while (unless they already have one, in which case they are actively looking for a next male who would sponsor even more outrageous lifestyle, more expensive clothing and better car). There are many subspecies, but explaining them would take a post triple the size of Giustinos original posting. If you frequent nightclubs you get to know all of them soon.

Joshua ütles ...

absolutely brilliant!

Juan Manuel ütles ...

And all that meaning in one four-letter word with no dots on top of it!? ;) Amazing :)))

Wahur ütles ...

Right, Juan, Estonian is amazing, isn't it?
:D

Blogaddict ütles ...

Any man anywhere should first look at the girl's mother, no matter how hot the girl is, because, trust me, that moustache WILL be there when she's ripe.

Lucky for those of you foreigners who have climbed out of the southern reaches of the human gene pool, Estos are not very hirsute so don't fear that.

As you know by now, we are historically a mathriatic country so that nagging gene is there and going strong. If it has not surfaced yet, give it couple of years.

Speaking from experience.

Advice? Upgrade to a newer version or at least threaten with an upgrade.

And good luck.

Puu ütles ...

In addition to physical attractiveness I think part of what is so attractive about estonian women is that you get the
sense of gender equality with them as well. They work hard they are smart they often own their own property. But again, at least in the case of my parents, everything tends to go to the husband and his interests in the end. Also once you are off the market as an estonian woman (like married) a lot of the equality tends to peter out. And power structure can come in. I am not saying this to be a ball breaker. I don't want to be a casterator. I really like men. Actually when they aren't substance abusers I really like Estonian men, who I think tend to get in the short end of the stick in all of this as they are trying to be pai poissid while Mari goes off and gets sloshed with John. I love sex with men. I like looking pretty and being admired. I like nice clothes. But unless it is for play occassionally in a very stable relationship ( which I really have yet to have) I really don't like S& M. I don't think it should be regulated or anything, I think it is part of the human unconcious.I think we should be free to explore that aspect of our sexuality.But too much is bad for a person, it makes you brittle, it's the energy of war essentially, the desire dominate another person and gain pleasure from that domination(you can see I have been reading lots of Foucault). I feel that a lot of the sexuality that is going on in Eastern Europe, especially around the club scene is essentially sado masochistic. The sadists being the men and the masochists being the women ( maybe a couple of years into the relationship, when you want an upgrade it starts to feel like the situation is reversed :)). I not condemming it, I feel like I am myself the product of such a relationship. But ultimately the burnout in such a intimate relationship is very high because the whole thing is not based on wow thats a beautiful sunset do you like that sunset i like it too or I like when you touch me there do you like it I touch you there, but rather I am a big stud say it I am a big stud, you are a a hot bitch and I am big stud. The hot bitch big stud thing may be fun for awhile, but unless it is a game you are playing with someone you love it is itself not love.It is very hard and very unhealthy to raise kids in hot bitch big stud mode. The problem is that lots of people tend to mistake it for love or be happy with having those sorts of relationships ( easily arranged in some parts of the world by promises of a Visa to a more desirable place).
The hotness of estonian women aside, it can just be very sad on a human level.

Frank ütles ...

I suppose the nagging gene attached to a pair of x-chromosomes is more endemic in patriarchal societies than in would-be or once-upon-a-time matriarchal ones ...

Anyhow, I am not quite sure about those matriarchs. Might be just Northern-European necessities ...

Estonia has always suffered from a lack of people - could always have done with some extra thousands or even more inhabitants (Applies also to Iceland or Norway). Human beings are and have been a valuable ressource in Estonia compared to other places (especially eastwards), replenishing after losses being no easy task. I guess that explains a lot and does also give some hints why a considerable number of women in Estonia come across as somewhat astute, self-assured and altogether not too easily fooled.
Which attitude can be very appealing for a man who wants a real partner. Apart from that one should bear in mind that Estonian women are probably less westernized in that sense that they are not convinced that men and women should always be treated respectively act in the same way. The definition lines that portray what is male behaviour and apparel and what is decidedly female are or at least used to be less blurred than in many Western countries. Which can also be very appealing to weary Westerners.

According to ajaloodoktor Sirje Kivimäe the position of the Baltic German ladies in Estonia in the olden days was also much stronger than that of the ladies in the higher echelons of society in - for example - Germany and France, not to mention Imperial Russia.

Altogether we might hit here something definitely Nordic, according to several sources strong women have been typical for Nordic societies for ages: :
"She (the viking woman) had the duty to run the farm when her husband was out on trading tours, raids or went out to fish or hunt. As a visible sign of her power, she received the keys to the house’s supply chests during her wedding. She carried the keys in a belt around her waist."

In German there is the terminus technicus Schlüsselgewalt, "power of the keys", in Germanic societies the married woman was in charge in more than one way."

Without women that were able and used to wield their power, the maintaining of the family-estate was bound to run low.

"The division between a woman’s and man's domain was established at the door step. The outside work belonged to the man and the inside work belonged to the woman. However, especially fit women could take on the cloth of armaments and be a warrior in the same way as the (Viking) men.
With the right to property, inheritance and divorce, the Viking woman had more rights than most women in the remainder of Europe during this period."

(...)

Kristopher ütles ...

Wahur -- I'd be interested to know more about the difference between beibe and tibi.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that tibi is more or less exactly "chick", which it literally means. And I can't think when it would be acceptable for a male to use "chick" in front of a general audience -- Puu is right. Maybe "she is one tough chick" would be understood not to be sexist. But if you were complimenting a colleague of yours, for instance, you would say, "She's a great girl" or gal, but never chick. Whereas I have heard Estonian women say admiringly about one of their own, "Tubli tibi". So there's a little difference there.

Beibe is from babe, but beibe describes a whole "dumb blonde" subculture and clothing style. I think. (The male counterpart would be rullnokk -- which is used for various Beamer-driving cap-wearing idiots, a very specific Estonian thing.)

Kristopher ütles ...

A great post, BTW. And a fine ode to the subject.

Now I do the cooking at my place, but if my wife could make me coffee that would be great, especially if she could hum that song from the Lõfbergs Lila commercial -- it's a mõnus dulcet female voice humming a snippet over a strummed ukulele, very 1930s.

McMad ütles ...

The reason why Estonian women go with western guys is the same as for Thai women: they think this western man will take them to a far better place. Once they arrive in Luton or Rotherham, sooner or later they realize what utter sh*thole it actually is. Divorce follows and they take off with a large chunk of the poor mans possessions. Luckily lately a lot of Estonian women have realized that the West is not all that rozy and only the stupider nightclub tibi types still believe that that drunken Johnny is going to whisk them off to a paradise.

btw i just returned from a 3 week trip in Estonia :) (didn't have anything to do with tibis though)

Jaan ütles ...

Yes this was an entertaining post but not "great" You try to have it both ways Justin. You seem to denounce the sexism of your final rhetorical question with possible mockery but not outright mockery so noone knows how serious you are. (Noh, mis te mõtlete sõbrad? Kas eesti naised ongi kõige ilusam naised maailmas?) You're referring to you're wife and feminist attitudes of an American place you above the squabble. However concurrently you add to the sexism by writing on a safe popular theme which gets everyone chatting about how hot eesti naised are or about how feminist and advanced Estonian society is for its strong women. This feels like cheap irony although I am positive you Justin will have some smart answer justifying you're clever and highminded intention. Above all else the level of discussion is lowered to a pub table in which everyone relates their personal experiences and views on girls and wifes like as if these narcisistic and self-referring tales mean something bigger. Some one said before that the discussion often returns to the topic of hot Estonian girls. This makes your blog become less interesting every time this occurs. Aside from this problem it is a slightly funny post.

Giustino ütles ...

Luckily lately a lot of Estonian women have realized that the West is not all that rozy

Estonia is The West.

This feels like cheap irony although I am positive you Justin will have some smart answer justifying you're clever and highminded intention.

Quite honestly, I was looking for a quick way to tie the whole thing together. I really didn't put that much thought into the last sentence.

What I am surprised about Jaan is the fact that no one has mentioned the old ladies and the buckets for drowning kittens.

If I controlled what people posted, I would have hoped a discussion about feline euthanasia would have occured.

People can post whatever they like in this 'pub table' because I can't/won't moderate it. And most discussions anywhere lead to sex or Nazis or Palestinians.

Read the nonsense over at Finland for Thought. Phil probably doesn't moderate much either.

Other than that thanks for your thoughtful post. Now, back to work.

Blogaddict ütles ...

Yeah. Let's slap ourselves straight and resume talking politics. How about Putin backing out of the conventional arms treaty last week?

Andres ütles ...

Since when is murdering infants considered euthanasia?

andres kahar ütles ...

One of my oldest and best friends is Claudius, a quasi-feral feline who adopted me in Riga. He read your bit about old Esto women and kitten-killing with deep interest and mounting fury. He remembers hearing tales of such atrocities in his kittenhood (from a Lithuanian uncle), but always scratched that down to urban myth. Claudius says he knows only one Vanaema well -- and she'd never do such a thing.

Since reading your post, Claude's been agitated: he's been pawing up plans on a little blackboard (by his litterbox) under the crude working title Galīgā Redakcija. Something about 'restoring the balance' and 'showing those old bags how it feels'...

Question: what could one use as bait to lure and trap Vanaemad in large numbers?

Giustino ütles ...

Since when is murdering infants considered euthanasia?

Is there any other polite word for drowning kittens in a bucket?

Kristopher ütles ...

I'm probably as much to blame for degrading the discussion, but I'd rather have South Park than eggshells.

The answer to Claudius's (or Kahar's) question is of course to use Savisaar -- either in person (preferable) or a Savisaar double. They can usually be found at Balti jaama turg in the doubles section.

Jens-Olaf ütles ...

Thinking about middle aged women in Estonia there are certainly different ways how to live. Her are some of the best female kettaheide throwers of Estonia in 2007. (best of all Estonian women)
1. Eha Rünne age 44
4. Lea Vahter age 46
7. Mare Külv age 50

And as far as I know these sports people they will keep on doing it in the future.

Wahur ütles ...

I'd guess they quit when age number exceeds their discus results :)

Wahur ütles ...

Kristopher
To me tibi, beib, tšikk, lind sound more or less synonymous. With nuances, but still mostly the same. As far as using them in positive context - think of "nigga". It might have gained certain positive meaning, but I would still avoid calling someone in Bronx a nigga, just in case. Just the same, I've heard some friends of mine use 'tšikk' on themselves. Still, someone calling them that at street would normally leave with bad groin contusion ;)

Kaisa ütles ...

I get pretty mad every time someone says Estonia is a matriarchal society. And the people I get mad at the most are Estonian women. They are so hypocritical - while they do feel they are entitled to equal pay, job opportunities and equal treatment, they are insulted when someone calls them a feminist. That word is one of the worst insults you can throw at a woman here, yet almost all of them believe in the principles of feminism. Every time there is an article about a prominent woman, the subject of children or lack thereof is always touched upon, whereas it's almost never the case with men. They just don't want to be seen as strong because the general idea is that men are suppose to rule things and make the decisions. The men try to live up this ridiculous standard and the result is a 11 year gap in the average age of men and women in Estonia.
The general attitude in Estonia is that a woman is a (hu)man's best friend. It manifests itself in small things, such as inserting "female" (nais-) in front of various professions - female politician, female guitarist, female whatever. Unless one uses the prefix male just as often, it implies that female is a subspecies of some kind.
I see some changes in the younger generation and it makes me hopeful, but as of now, we have miles to go.

plasma-jack ütles ...

A big cake for Kaisa! I couldn't agree more.

Puu ütles ...

You don't say n- unless you are black latino and go to PS 1 something or other. If you do you are an indiot. Similarly if you aren't a blonde estonian girl you shouldn't call someone a tibi.

Puu ütles ...

idiot. sorry

cristal ütles ...

nii tore on toreda Eesti naise mehelt lugeda häid asju Eesti naiste kohta :)
kusjuures üsna täppi panid! mulle ka vahel tundub, et naised on aktiivsem pool. aga küllap sõja aeg õpetas - mehed olid ju ära...

katarina ütles ...

Our 2y old son called his newborn sister vaike tibi. I think it was very funny.

Would not like her to become one when teenager though.

Cicero ütles ...

Thus made me cry laughing with total and complete recogniton. Now I have broken up with my eesti naine, I am begining to think another one would not be a bad idea!!!

Suhkrutükk ütles ...

To McMad!

Amazing, what you just wrote.

"The reason why Estonian women go with western guys is the same as for Thai women: they think this western man will take them to a far better place."

"...Divorce follows and they take off with a large chunk of the poor mans possessions..."

I am amazed and speechless. Are you living in the 70s -90s? That was the time when Estonian women actually could have such ideas. The life and perspection in Estonia in year 2007 is not something that makes you go for a foreign guy because of his wallot!

I have intercultural relationship. Guy is my age. The reason I have ever dated a foreign guy is:

a) he is an interesting person/we had chemistry/ understanding/ motion of the ocean whatever

Never money. We are in EU and it was pretty clear we will be quite soon after re independence. Most Estonian women want to acchieve something ON THEIR OWN. The culture of being passive is foreign at least to my generationa and for bit older. (I am 25)

I am educated, ambitious, curious, have my own principles and ideas. So do my female friends. Go with a foreign guy for better life? Never crossed my mind, neither the minds of my friends.

There is always contingent of women who'se personality is more dependant, naive. There are gold diggers in EVERY culture. Socially it makes sense if there are more of such women where the life is really hard and that is the only way to get out...

But come on: these 3 weeks in Estonia that made you such an expert probably didn't give you much possibilities to really meet Estonians.

So basically you visited the country and now insulting the people of that country. Please, get over your complexes. Women can divorce also because: cultural differences, the relation is not as it seemed etc etc. And you just marginalize all these divorces into woman not feeling rich enough. So mean.

Ashok ütles ...

I lived in Estonia 6 years.Married a woman from Kuressaare.So I have two kind of opinions about estonian women.
About women I meet outisde in work place and else where are very friendly and positive and cheerful.
My wife and her family, though I have no words to describe it.They are ready to peel yopur skin off.Every on eine stonia told me my wife is using me including Estonian Police.She did all the dirty cheap tricks.Which amused me.
If you ask me, Estonian women are selfish, cold blooded and have no moral and character.I have seen a lot of married estonian women having a nice husband but have 3-4 sex partners and lovers as well.
They dont care about family.Sleeping till later afternoon is more important to them.Family can go to hell.They dont care much abt children.it is clearly visible what kind of manners most of estonian children have.
Estonian women always curse men but they dont look inside them selves what they do to keep their man.Nothing.
Men are like automat for money for estonian women.
If they get money from man he is good otherwise they try their left best along with their mother , father, sisters and brothers to thorow the husband out of home.
Family is not at all imprtant to them.
I wonder what the old women of estonia taught there girls?
beacuse they know nothing about family values and culture and what is family in the first place.
I cant write 100 pages about it.BUt it is useless.I am not Jesus Christ to change a countru of mindless women.

Fenice ütles ...

McMad


"The reason why Estonian women go with western guys is the same as for Thai women: they think this western man will take them to a far better place."

"...Divorce follows and they take off with a large chunk of the poor mans possessions..."

Do u live in 18th century or are you just extremely narrow-minded?

I took myself to another place and I wouldn't say it's a better place. Simply because I've travelled the world and come to the conclusion that Estonia is the best place in the world. Life is same everywhere you go. Me, as Estonian woman can assure you that I don't need a man in my life- I've got my ambitions, principles and everything I have achieved, I've achieved myself. I'm strong, independent and can carry a man on my back, should the need arise. ( metaphorically, of course.)

Fenice ütles ...

McMad


"The reason why Estonian women go with western guys is the same as for Thai women: they think this western man will take them to a far better place."

"...Divorce follows and they take off with a large chunk of the poor mans possessions..."

Do u live in 18th century or are you just extremely narrow-minded?

You're 1 of those ignorant western people with the common idea that one has to help those poor ignorant Eastern Europeans whose existence is a form of psychotherapy for many in the West.


I took myself to another place and I wouldn't say it's a better place. After travelling I've come to the conclusion that Estonia is the best place in the world. Life is same everywhere you go. I, as Estonian woman can assure you that I don't need a man in my life- I've got my ambitions, principles and everything I have achieved, I've achieved myself. I'm strong, independent and can carry a man on my back, should the need arise. ( metaphorically, of course.)

Arannak ütles ...

Estonia girls arent fools. So yes if you yourself got something to offer of value thats fine, otherwise :)

And like puu said cross cultural marriages rarely work.

Yamin ütles ...

I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.

Lucy

http://toddlergirls.net

marty mang ütles ...

to understand estonian women better, read about them in estonian history. books like "carying linda's stones" and "sentence: syberia" will make it better to understand them. but not easier.

antoniocicchella ütles ...

Hey, guys wake up. We are in the age of globalization, Nations are merely a construct and people are the same in all the world. So, Estonian woman are exactly as Italian, Spanish, German and English ! This discourse is a non sense.

marie cruz ütles ...

Hey! That's not a nice thing to say about the Estonian women. Maybe there are really a lot of hot to meet women in Estonia and foreign guys go there to find a date or a wife, but just because a woman went out on a date with a foreigner it means she's only interested in his money is not true.

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Yes ,not as expected ,but you casn find girls and boys for chat at http://VideoChatFreeOnline.BlogSpot.com .Only for +18 .

Nannu ütles ...

to Ashok who said: "If you ask me, Estonian women are selfish, cold blooded and have no moral and character.I have seen a lot of married estonian women having a nice husband but have 3-4 sex partners and lovers as well.
They dont care about family.Sleeping till later afternoon is more important to them.Family can go to hell.They dont care much abt children.it is clearly visible what kind of manners most of estonian children have."
I understand you have your opinion, but isn't it narrowminded to have it based on your bad taste in women. Just because you've met these kind of women doesn't mean everyone is like that. You have these kind of women in every culture. If you look for these golddigging, superficial "tibis" then don't expect to end up with a kindhearted woman. Chances are if you manage to hook up with someone after a few hours in the club they won't be super loyal to you. Look for morals in the right places. And educate yourself to be a better judge of character.

All my female Estonian friends are very much family oriented and wouldn't even think of cheating on their husband. They are friendly and kind and care very much about their children.

As to sleeping till later afternoon, I wake up 2.30 am to go to work, am studying and working and help out my brothers finacially, because they can't find a job so don't go talking about Estonian women being lazy.

You can't generalize women like that. I mean you could, but it's very narrowminded