neljapäev, mai 03, 2007

Why the EU Wants the Našistõ Nipped in the Bud

With the issue of the Estonian government's decision to relocate a Soviet war memorial to a military cemetery de facto concluded -- though the repercussions will no doubt linger for years -- the situation at the Estonian embassy in Moscow has become the new focus point of this contest of wills.

For six days activists from the Kremlin-endorsed Nashi youth group have harassed Estonian diplomatic officials, climaxing in yesterday's activities where a press conference held by the Estonian ambassador Marina Kaljurand was stormed by dozens of the teens who are too young to remember the USSR.

Kaljurand was saved only by her bodyguard's mace which kept the crowds at bay. Yesterday also her car and the car of the Swedish ambassador were attacked, prompting diplomatic protests from Sweden, the EU, NATO, and the US State Department for Russia to honor its obligations under the Vienna Convention of 1961.

Today even Finnish President Tarja Halonen weighed in, calling the situation "grave." She will also meet with the EU presidency, currently held by Germany this week.

But why is the EU so concerned? I mean a ripped flag and marauding gang of teenagers are reprehensible, but it's not like they've stormed the embassy just yet. However, I think that the EU has seen the "Putin Youth" as a problem for quite some time, and they are using this opportunity where one of their own, Estonia, is under attack, to settle some things with Russia.

As The Moscow Times reports, Britain has come under target from Nashi in the past as well:


The British Foreign Office in December appealed to the Foreign Ministry to end the harassment of British Ambassador Anthony Brenton by Nashi members after Brenton participated in a conference organized by the opposition coalition The Other Russia at the Renaissance Moscow Hotel.

In the weeks and months following the conference, Nashi members periodically picketed outside the British Embassy, demanding that Brenton apologize for promoting fascism, tailed his car and disrupted his speeches.

So the EU is quite aware that a Kremlin-endorsed youth group has the potential to cripple its diplomatic missions in Russia, and that the Russian authorities -- as in the case of Britain and Estonia -- have been slow moving and reluctant to reel them in.

The question for the EU is that whether the Russian authorities turn their Nashi attack dogs on any country that draws the ire of Russian state-owned television? And will their ambassadors continue to be safe when the hordes of Putin Youth are growing bolder -- attacking cars, breaking up press conferences, physically threatening the safety of foreign diplomats.

Who will be next? Poland, perhaps? Or will it be the Czechs? Maybe it will be the Swedes if they have too many concerns about the pipeline deal? Or the Finns if they flirt too much with NATO? Russia has a very clear obligation under the Vienna Conventions. The EU will find out soon whether or not it has decided to ignore its commitments to that treaty too.

64 kommentaari:

Erik ütles ...

I read this today on the swedish foreign ministers blog:

"Suveräna länder har rätten att suveränt besluta om var de skall placera sina statyer och minnesmärken. Det är det Estland gjort.

Suveräna stater har skyldigheten att respektera internationella regler för det internationella umgänget. Det är det Ryssland inte gjort."


It translates like this:

Sovereign countries has the right to sovereignly decide where to place their statues and other memorial symbols.
Estonia has done this

Sovereign states has the responsibility to respect international rules for international relations.
Russia has not done this.

jaffa ütles ...

the situation at the Estonian embassy in Moscow has become the new focus point of this contest of wills.

Contest of wills - Between Estonia and Russia ONLY - I have been scanning the International news, and newspapers – No one is bothered in the EU

Today even Finnish President Tarja Halonen weighed in, calling the situation "grave." She will also meet with the EU presidency, currently held by Germany this week.
Except Finland – but they are close to you. Another unimportant country

But why is the EU so concerned? I mean a ripped flag and marauding gang of teenagers are reprehensible, but it's not like they've stormed the embassy just yet. However, I think that the EU has seen the "Putin Youth" as a problem for quite some time, and they are using this opportunity where one of their own, Estonia, is under attack, to settle some things with Russia.
The EU is not concerned, more people in the EU know about the human rights situation in Estonia then – Nobody knows about the Putin Youth – Show me one newspaper in Britain and France that mentions any Russian youth this morning.

As The Moscow Times reports, Britain has come under target from Nashi in the past as well: The British Foreign Office in December appealed to the Foreign Ministry to end the harassment of British Ambassador Anthony Brenton by Nashi members after Brenton participated in a conference organized by the opposition coalition The Other Russia at the Renaissance Moscow Hotel.
the British public is blissfully unaware of this – so is the media – These things mean nothing its only a form of protest – the USA has dozens of demonstrations against its missions worldwide – its old hat not newsworthy.

So the EU is quite aware that a Kremlin-endorsed youth group has the potential to cripple its diplomatic missions in Russia, and that the Russian authorities -- as in the case of Britain and Estonia -- have been slow moving and reluctant to reel them in.
Stuff & Nonsense – The EU is not bothered. Our relations with Russia are very important
The EU is not aware and if they are this is not a big issue (except for estonia) – Just scan all the newspapers and broadcast media in the rest of the EU – Nothing about Estonia and Russia – ZILCH – sorry – What you say is stuff and Nonsense.
Everyone is talking about Israel and the report and if Olmert will resign. Second news the confrence in Egypt where 60 world leaders have gathered. NOTHING _ NOTHING - NOTHING on little Estonia.

The question for the EU is that whether the Russian authorities turn their Nashi attack dogs on any country that draws the ire of Russian state-owned television? And will their ambassadors continue to be safe when the hordes of Putin Youth are growing bolder -- attacking cars, breaking up press conferences, physically threatening the safety of foreign diplomats.
There is no question for the EU Estonia is rather a waste of time – the EU has more important things to do - Nobody is bothered – I am listening to the BBC, Today Program – No mention. French media nothing - Bullshit!

Who will be next? Poland, perhaps? Or will it be the Czechs? Maybe it will be the Swedes if they have too many concerns about the pipeline deal? Or the Finns if they flirt too much with NATO? Russia has a very clear obligation under the Vienna Conventions. The EU will find out soon whether or not it has decided to ignore its commitments to that treaty too.
The EU is in friendly terms with Russia. The nuclear threat has gone away. The cold war has ended. What is really being discussed is that should Russia be antagonized by the USA’s new missile defense.
Unlike Estonia the large EU countries are not against Russia whom they prefer to keep on friendly terms. Nobody wants to go back to the cold war. The support of Russia is needed against the war on terror.
Russia has vast energy resources which the West needs along with crucial votes in the Security Council.
China is emerging as the next big superpower followed by India. The West does not wish to drive Russia into the arms of China. It wishes a neutral and friendly Russia who will support the war in Iraq ands stay neutral if there is an attack on Iran.
DO YOU REALLY THINK LITTLE ESTONIA HAS SO MUCH INFLUENCE WITH THE BIG BOYS OF THE EU? – YOU ARE THE SIZE OF JUST ONE MAJOR CITY IN EUROPE?
Yes the EU is concerned about democracy in Russia under Putin. However it is also concerned with the Human rights situation in Estonia.
Why do you imagine everyone is in love with little Estonia. Why should the EU jeopardize it vital and long term interests with Russia just because a bunch of youth yelled slogans at your Ambassador.
I have looked Newspapers and Broadcast media. Out of eighteen large newspapers in Europe Estonia is only mentioned once – that to in the inside pages.
– Dozens of statements come out every day – Estonia is not even on the agenda of all the high level meetings today at the EU –
Yes! Sure the EU might make a little statement about Estonia But this does not mean anything in the context of the REALPOLITIK and the very important relations with the Huge and powerful country Russia.

Kris ütles ...

Siin on miskit hirmutavat...
http://3koma14.blogspot.com/2007/05/maksja-vene-saatkond-pikk-19.html

ja siin miskit huvitavat
http://3koma14.blogspot.com/2007/05/tuvastaseetdiee.html

huvitav palju neid kokku tuleb ja nagu tuleb välja, võetakse lapsed ka koolidest ja viiakse Tõnismäele... politseinikud vanurite ja lase vastu arvatavasti kätt ei tõsta. Eks pannakse need nõrgemad esiliinile ja ´võitlejad´ kaigastega tahapoole... :(

martintg ütles ...

jaffa said...
DO YOU REALLY THINK LITTLE ESTONIA HAS SO MUCH INFLUENCE WITH THE BIG BOYS OF THE EU?


You are such a clown.

Estonia Makes European Alliance against Russia
http://www.kommersant.com/p763227/Estonia_EU-Russia_summit/

Kristopher ütles ...

Jaffa actually raises some points.

I think we shouldn't play Chicken Little every time a Duma member sneezes (unless the flapping of his fat jowls poses a risk to others standing nearby, of course) or a youth tosses a rock. Just think of all that US embassies around the world have endured in the past couple years. I even question whether Paet has to put out a protest quid pro quo for each case of harassment from Russia -- it could end up leaving a slightly hysterical impression. Being on our heels all the time is not a good tactic.

The bottom line is that Estonia deals with Russia through the EU.
And they are right to nip this in the bud. Russia has issues with Sweden dating back to the Great Northern War, but it is going to have to learn to deal with its wounded pride in other ways.

plasma-jack ütles ...

jaffa,
does it hurt you very much that Russian Baltic navy has less battleships than Finnish one and therefore you have to resort to hooliganism and cyber-spamming, because you are too weak to wage any war?

I bet it does 8-)
Give my regards to Mr Kadyrov... that guy is going to pose you some REAL problems to deal with in the next 10 years.

Eleonora ütles ...

Hey Jaffa
Welcome back.
1. Would you please answer my question.

2. The main news tonight on a major Australian TV network featured a long segment on little Estonia ending up with the comment
"A small nation with a lot of new Friends".

jaffa ütles ...

plasma-jack in reply to your post.

We are not worried about the Russian Navy – Or hurt because its greatly diminished, I am puzzled at your comment.


But you are right we are hurt.

Hurt by the beating we got from the majority police force.

Hurt when we were tied like animals and pissed on

Hurt when you force us and our children to speak your language

Hurt when we are treated like second class citizens

Hurt when hunger strikes our families because the majority discriminates.

Hurt when you shit on our culture by removing our monument

Hurt when your vicious language police demands we be dismissed from employment

THESEARE THE THINGS THAT HURT US PLASMA JACK

Not the Russian Navy’s strength in ships, Russia has nothing to do with us. Estonia is our homeland, and we are never going to go away.

However instead of discussing the Russian navy, you should be worried because I hear a lot of talk about:

The New Russian speaking Homeland Liberation Army - of ethnic Russians

Slobodan Milošević once told the Serbs “They will NEVER beat you again” He was referring to the Serbs being beaten in Kosovo in the then Yugoslavia

THE REST IS HISTORY

Maybe some say that Estonia in its present form of discrimination is finished and that Russians Speakers will no longer be bound by decisions of the majority community.

In Reply to Eleonora

Yes the image in the west is Estonia as a friendly little country. The Estonians have created that image as they are friendly and speak English. They are Ambassadors and have created considerable goodwill.

But this then gets all buggered when people hear about your policies towards your minorities.

Beside Austrilia can hardly come and assist you from down under, when push comes to shove.

jaffa ütles ...

What is Ironical is that the Majority Estonian Community itself, is a tiny minority in the context of its huge neighbor in the east and the members of the EU in the West.

In its fear for Russia Estonia thinks security will come from the West. After all has not Estonia joined this great EU, it will protect little Estonia.
The owner of this Blog is desprate to make a case that the EU thinks estonia very important it will even FIGHT THE BAD BIG BEAR to save it.

Wistful thinking.

The large countries to the West have their own agenda and insecurities. Nothing is owed to Estonia but much to be gained by friendship with the Great bear to the East.

Read my first post today.
This help from the west will not be forthcoming – as much as you try to convince yourself it will

The only way for Estonia to have security is to stop our discriminatory policies and unite our people by respecting our minorities & following non discriminatory policies.

EXAMPLE: Any Russian speaking Estonian reading the comments on this blog for the past month will have felt he or she is a SECOND CLASS CITIZEN

Imagine yourself a Russian speaking Estonian – How would you feel reading some of the shit here.

I myself feel an outsider here, many Russians feel so sick with this blog that they read it but rarely post here.

There is a great feeling of alienation Russians speakers feel in their homeland Estonia.
& If this is not solved many think that there must be a parting of ways.

Andres ütles ...

jaffa, when the police is kicking and arresting the kind of people I saw on TV, I'm only happy and wish them good luck. We don't need thugs and criminals and if you're advocating those values, I refuse to have further dialog with you.

You are "hurt" when Estonians want you to know basic Estonian in Estonia.. that's interesting. The next time I go to Russia, I will start to demand that everybody talks with me in Estonian too, let's see how that works out, huh? Swallow your pride, man! It will help, seriously!

If you really think the Bronze Soldier is the most important part of your culture, I'm sorry for you. I have always thought Bulgakov, Tshaikovski, Pushkin etc are the most precious assets of your culture.

As for the "evil language police". I really would like if the clerks in shops and taxi drivers would understand what I say in my own land in my own language. In Sillamäe people in shops don't even understand the most basic things I ask them. At the same time if anybody wants service in Russian, he gets it everywhere in Estonia. Now that's what I call discrimination.

Evil Purc ütles ...

jaffa's insane ramblings are almost funny in a pathetic way. Russians hurt when they have to learn Estonian and hunger strikes them? Maybe hunger strikes because you have not got a job because you have not learned Estonian because you are a lazy chauvinist bum.

Russian culture is a monument for those who died fighting for a criminal regime? Oh, please! Stop humiliating yourself and Russian culture, it's just too pathetic!

Scott ütles ...

Welcome back, Jaffa. I will say that you are the most entertaining of the Kremlin Interweb corps I've seen in awhile.

Please, keep posting. :-D


BTW, I have a friend in Sweden right now, who says a person or persons stoned the Russian embassy in Stockholm this morning. I haven't seen a news article yet.

jaffa ütles ...

In reply to Andres post

Thank you for a reasoned and unemotional post

But because you think because this country is called Estonia and Estonian speakers are in the majority. Then Estonians speakers own the country and everybody else can piss off to Russia.

The Country also belongs to the 700,000 Russian speakers.

It is a multi cultural country – Not a single culture country
A Russian speaker will be perfectly entitled to SPEAK Russian given the large minority there.

Anyway why should anyone speak your obscure language Estonian – I think making the state language English a better choice and more useful

In India large populations speak different languages. The large majority speak Hindi.

The Hindi speakers do not impose their language on others.
The language of communication is English.
English has helped in India’s massive outsourcing boom and great economic leap forward.

So here is solution folk.
We Russians will speak Russian at Home

You Estonians do the same.
We might love to learn each others languages, but it should be voluntary.

LETS HAVE ESTONIA’S STATE LANGUGE ENGLISH

Why should Estonian speakers nationalism trample over the rights of Estonia’s huge Russian minority.

IT IS A DUAL CULTURE/LANGUAGE COUNTRY GIVEN THERE ARE 700.000 of us Russian speakers

jaffa ütles ...

And thanks Scott for your welcome. there is indeed a shortage of russian speakers here represented amongst all you estonian speakers

hullu poro ütles ...

@jaffa,
And the Serbs, especially in the Kosovo, have SO much to thank Milosevic for. I mean, it's incredible anyone would make that comparison and think it reflected well on the Russian extremists, that they are like their Serbian lunatic counterparts. One of those cultural difference things, I suppose.

Andres ütles ...

I think you mean about 350 000 Russians? Come on, every second person in Estonia isn't Russian. If you say that, you've never been to Estonia.

Evil Purc ütles ...

I love the way he stresses out "huge" all the time. =D "Huge and powerful country Russia", "huge Russian minority" etc. He doesn't care much for facts either..."700.000 of us Russian speakers" - nevermind that really there are only ca 350 000.

What a funny guy! =)

Kristopher ütles ...

Jaffa: When countries do censuses, multiple blogger identities don't count. Sorry. As others pointed out, your figure for speakers of Russians as their native language is way too high.

I don't know wat point you were leading up to (the line breaks were too annoying to keep reading). But it seems to me that lack of English is a bigger problem. You, for instance, could actually be persuasive if you studied basic grammar and rhetoric. How about focusing on English? Russian citizens who were brought to Estonia during the Soviet occupation could eventually get good jobs in the EU. Provided of course they have a clean punishment record.

Kristopher ütles ...

correction: speakers of Russian

Eleonora ütles ...

Hello again Jaffa

Thank you for answering.

You are right that Australia is not likely to assist Estonia by military means but it is not unlikely that Australia will join the growing international pressure condemning Russian tactics.

I am trying to learn Estonian at present and my progress after 2 years is very slow even considering I already speak two languages. Your English is much much better than my Estonian. Ignore the rude, insensitive and unhelpful remarks about your English. They are just angry at some of your comments.

What is the actual status of the Russian minority? Are they truly stateless as Giustino stated?
For example:

are they recognised as Russian citizens by Russia;

can they get Russian passports;

are they eligible to vote in any elections in Russia;

do they have permanent residence status in Estonia and so able to cross the border into Russia (say for visiting relatives and then return to Estonia; and

what are their rights to travel within the EU?

Your reply to plasma-jack was very good reading. Please keep posting.

space_maze ütles ...

So, will Estonia be getting wide arrays of 12 points from all over Europe next week in the Song Contest? It would not surprise me. :D

jänksu ütles ...

Recently I have been bewildered by some of the comments that I see around the internet. I am a Russian-speaker, Jaffa. I most certainly have no feeling of anyone pissing on me or any other vulgarism that you referred to.

Estonia has been the homeland of Estonians. Yes, that small country, that throughout history has been the honey pot of many countries because of its location in the Baltic Sea and hence trade routes. Estonia has preserved its language despite being under the rule of Danes, Swedes, Germans, Russians.. They (we) are entitled to some pride too. And just by looking at the length of time that Estonians have been in the country with comparison to "ethnic Russians" (whatever this term may mean), then there is every right to demand that whoever has settled in their country would integrate and learn at least some of the language. Try it, you may like it.
Estonia, unlike India has not developed with several dialects, apart from perhaps Seto or Võro. Germany has not made Turkish one of their national languages and is right in that decision!

Both of my parents are Russians, but living in Estonia, speaking Estonian, enjoying Estonian culture has made me more Estonian than Russian. And I enjoy it. This country is my home and when I read posts by "Russian-speakers" who also wish to call Estonia home, yet ridicule it, its natives and its language, then I simply feel disgusted.

A country does not consist of geographical entity alone.

Finally, Estonian is a beautiful and rare language, you should be very well aware that making English the national language would exterminate it. Don't you have any respect for other cultures that you suggest something like that? Not to talk about the fact that there is too much English around already..

Giustino ütles ...

The New Russian speaking Homeland Liberation Army - of ethnic Russians

Don't you mean the Sprite-Hugo Boss Liberation Army?

Maybe the Russians in New York will declare a new country in their neighborhoods too. New Yalta, perhaps? What can the Russian-speaking country in London be called? I am voting for Novo Murmansk. It has a nice ring to it.

The Country also belongs to the 700,000 Russian speakers.

In 2006, there were circa 922,000 ethnic Estonians, 345,000 ethnic Russians, 28,000 Ukrainians, 16,000 Belarussians, and 11,000 Finns.

The reason the Estonian culture is dominant is because they founded the state in 1918, maintained it during the Cold War era in exile in Oslo, restored it in 1991, and continue to run its institutions for the benefit of all residents.

If it wasn't for the Estonians there would have been no Hugo Boss and Sprite to steal last week. Instead, you might all still be drinking Stalin Cola.

plasma-jack ütles ...

Since this is a pub.

Why I can't hate Russians even after the weekend

1. The Russian literature is really great. Russians like Bulgakov, Harms, Pelevin, Veller etc etc have wrote some of my favorite books.
2. The Russian rock music is great. First and foremost Kino, but also Zemfira etc.
3. I have Russian friends. And now that's a really interesting story. A friend of mine, rasta-haired guitar-addict Ivan who is born in Narva, belongs to the notorious 9%, ie he only has grey passport. When I found out, I was like "wtf man, you speak Estonian with no accent, how come you ain't citizen." He shrugged and said that he was aware that he can do the language exam whenever he feels like it, only he can't think of a reason why he would do that. The only point I could make was that he would be able to vote, then, but since he's totally apolitical that wasn't a very strong argument. Thanks to him, though, I know that Estonian state really could remove some bureaucratic obstacles to integration and the language test really IS a little harsh. So I guess it could be reformed. But the main thing is, that Ivan really doesn't feel discriminated, although he's a non-citizen. I've seen his Russian friends and they seemed as OK as he - although they didn't speak Estonian, I could blabber some Russian to them. I don't see a problem with that, either.

Thing is, nobody is FORCING anybody to learn anything. I was always told at school that you're only learning for YOURSELF. True, if you can speak Russian, Estonian and English (like Ivan does), it works to your advantage if you want to find a job. Since I can understand French, I could work as a French translator - a thing that Ivan couldn't. Is he discriminated because of that? Am I discriminated beacause I can't be hired as an engineer? Well, neither of us feels that way.

Another interesting example of a "Russian-speaking Estonian" is Jevgeni with whom I went to the same university for a year... but he's kind of notorius already.
http://www.krishtafovitsh.ee/

Thing is, Russia is not worried about Russian-speaking Estonians being discriminated. Its fear is rather that Ivans and Jevgenis get too common here.
So its message is: don't learn Estonian! Don't listen to the Estonian media! Resist Estonian government in any way you can! Wait for the Soviet Union to be reinstated!
I can try to understand what the Russian state gets out of this (although I fail to see even here, what good would it make). But I really don't know what there is to gain for local Russians.
If someone of them really reads those comments, I would have those messages for them from an ethnic Estonian:

a) the Estonia will not be united with Russia, at least not voluntarily. You guys here have a life to live in the meantime.
b) the Russian language will NEVER be an official language of Estonia. That does NOT meant that you couldn't use your language in any way you want to.
c) we don't accept open insults to our state symbols and rewriting of our history. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't be allowed pay respect for those fallen in wars or even build a little altar to Stalin at your home, if you really feel this way.

EVERYTHING besides those points is negotiable. We really want to have dialogue with you. But a dialogue needs too sides. Stop listening to Russia's lies and come over to Estonia's side.

jaffa ütles ...

Don’t worry about Grammar this is not an English test, content is important not the delivery here. On the net you can use any old shorthand or grammer.
Perhaps all off you are so bankrupt in ideas that you wish to be pedantic and prefer only to address the issue of my grammar. You can do better than that.
Evil Purc – (What an oddball of a name you have chosen for yourself). Let me reply to you first.
I say huge because I wish to stress that ours is a multi cultural society. Western newspapers describe our Russian population, as a third of the Country.
Secondly no Russian trusts the Estonian government population figures. We feel these have been cooked up to the advantage of the majority population.
So do not pretend this huge Russian speaking population does not exist. The Zionist did the same, they tried to make out Israel is an empty land. The Palestinians are non persons. “Israel for the Jews and lets pretend the Arabs are not there”
So is it with Estonia. The Estonian culture does not have an exclusive right to the territory we call Estonia given the HUGE minority.
But Estonia is not Israel and will not get away with this kind of nationalism.
All of you in this Nationalist Blog please accommodate yourself to the new reality. Your Russian speaking countrymen are sick and tired of living in a state where there are second class citizens.
We will not accept this.

Giustino ütles ...

The EU is in friendly terms with Russia.

The EU strongly dislikes Russia but is currently lacking methods for dealing with it effectively.

Furthermore, most of the EU is in NATO, which really doesn't like Russia these days.

Russia, in general, has few real friends in the world. Who are they going to call? Hamas? Hugo Chavez? Uzbekistan?

It's sad to see how 7 years of Putinism has managed to alienate every democratic country in the world. Let's hope they choose someone normal next year, and I say 'they' as in the powerbrokers, since Russia is a quasi-fascist country that does not hold genuine elections and whose freedom of the press is at the bottom of Freedom House's list, while Estonia is #16.

plasma-jack ütles ...

Uzbekistan is a very good example. There is hardly a state in the world where Russian minority has been treated more harshly. The reaction from Russian side? Zero. Yet again, it must be AI and the west condemning these guys. Russia couldn't care less about its compatriots THERE.

jaffa ütles ...

HO HO! Now the cavalry has arrived!!

Giustino is here. The Boss man, of the reasoned argument.

Welcome! Welcome to your own Blog!!!

plasma-jack ütles ...

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=70401

check it out

jänksu ütles ...

Jaffa,

I have been reading Times, the Independent and mostly BBC to get an overview of what is going on. So please, do not say that it is not on the news. I also speak to my university friends from Germany, Poland, Russia, England and France about this issue without initiating the conversation.

I have no idea where the 1/3 number came from, but it was soon amended to a quarter by the BBC. The CIA factbook states the same. I do not understand why do you wish to see Estonia as a conspiracy machine? If it is so small and feeble, then do you really think it would get away with it?

Where is the discrimination? As you may imagine I have a lot of Russian-speaking acquaintance and have not heard of this, nor being a second-class citizen. Educated people are respected everywhere. In my old school there were two Russian-language teachers, both natives. They spoke Estonian with a funny accent, but they spoke it. They made us sing Russian songs and everybody loved these teachers.. They were not 2nd class citizens.

Giustino ütles ...

the British public is blissfully unaware of this – so is the media – These things mean nothing its only a form of protest

The British public doesn't matter. It's the diplomats that shape the policies and when one of them or two of them get harassed, they all know about it.

Western diplomats are friends. They hang out and drink wine and go on sight seeing trips. Everyone knows about the fascist Putin Youth in Moscow.

Erik ütles ...

Jaffa are you saying there there is actually 700.000 russian speakers in Estonia instead of the 350.000 that is stated in official figures? What do you base theese assumptions and numbers on? I hope its just not something you "feel".
And no im not an Estonian, but i live here.

Eleonora ütles ...

Actually Giustino, Jaffa has a point about the cavalry comment. It was rather gung-ho and brought to mind "Hi ho Silver" with the William Tell overture in the background.

jaffa ütles ...

In Reply to Gustino's post

The cold war is over. European diplomacy does not want the bad days of three minute warnings & nuclear shelters again.
Not for tiny Estonia
Please understand this. Good relations with Russia are very important. Russia has a veto in the Security Council; It has sophisticated weapons which it can sell to countries like Iran. Its got the Oil & Gas Europe badly needs. It must not be pushed into the arms of China. It is a huge country strategically placed near Afghanistan and Iran.
Do you think a diplomat from a tiny little place called Estonia being roughed up by a bunch of students will make a difference in relations with Russia?
A few years ago a British 2nd secretary was taken out of his car and given a good beating by the Iranian police in ratalation for an Iranian diplomat being arrested for drink driving in England. A few protest notes were exchanged thats all.
Idi Amin used to make British diplomats crawl on hands and knees for afew yards in for an audience accompanied by bongo drums he said its Ugandan culture. This is the way you must present your credentials he told the new UK ambassador (High Commissioner)
There has been cases when US diplomats have been pissed upon, detained and kicked up the arse. America has not declared war.
Believe me the lot of a diplomat is a lousy one.
Nobody really outside Estonia cares about your envoy and it will make no difference to EU - Russian relations.

plasma-jack ütles ...

Jaffa,
how very nice of you to bring Uganda and Iran into the context. Sadly, we don't think much good about aforementioned regimes, either.

plasma-jack ütles ...

this largely pro- or anti-Estonian rant is getting a bit old.

Read what a reasonable guy thinks:
http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2007/05/estonia-twists-in-wind.html

Nice to hear some criticism from our friends for a while. Should not take his words carelessly.

jaffa ütles ...

I must go now

Eleonor sems to be the only one here who not only is highly politically intelligent but polite cultured and modest. what are you doing with this motley bunch of scallywag nationalists. join our Estonian Russian blogs for a higher class of debate.

Giustino ütles ...

You forgot to mention the free Sprite, Jaffa. Courtesy of the Sprite Liberation Army.

Carlito ütles ...

A Lesson in Estonian History

(Source: The American Spectator)

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11377

stockholm slender ütles ...

Oh dear, one does really feel unclean just reading jaffa - he would be in some dire need of truth to power, but I don't think the concept exists for him. Truth is only an aspect of power, it doesn't matter in itself. Seems that Kremlin really is a museum of the 1930's, Goebbels would recognize these tactics - Stalin on the other hand didn't need to stoop so low, his power was absolute enough not to worry about even basic plausibility. So, such primitives we have in modern Europe: trading in the old hatreds and aggressions. I suppose we can only patiently wait that a real civil society would develope in Russia. Anyways, count me out, I surely will not hold my nose and engage in debate with this vile bunch of utter lies.

Eleonora ütles ...

Jaffa
You make me blush with your charm.

Unfortunately, I only know the following Russian (forgive the phonetic spelling

darsvidanya, spasiba, kapusta and tevutchka maladetch.

I did look at the dude site posted in another post but I have to say I wasn't impressed.

But hey, at least you and some of the others seemed to have calmed down and there appears to be the promise of an exchange rather than just throwing insults and threats.

Australia does not have a good record on human rights. The current leader is less than perfect and is doing everything he can to win the election later this year.

Australians are sports mad and the average person is not really interested in what goes on in the rest of the world, unless it concerns sport!

Australia is a country of migrants. The first Europeans in the form of British people arrived just over 200 years ago and the indigenous Aboriginal people (here for over 30,000 years)have been dispossed ever since.

Few Australians speak more than one language, English. A second language is not compulsory at school and many schools do not even have the capacity to teach another language. It is an island country and very inward looking.

I think we have too much sunshine and life is too easy unlike you up there in the northern latitudes.

plasma-jack ütles ...

eleonora:
for the record, Jaffa is obviously a Russian who lives in Russia.
I'm pretty syre that no local Russian would claim that there are 700 000 Russians living in here.

Jaffa:
under any circumstances, DO NOT open this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6619103.stm

Jens-Olaf ütles ...

Svenska Dagens Nyheter with pronkssõdur as headline now. Nato och USA stöder Estland.
http://www.dn.se/index.jsp

Eleonora ütles ...

Well plasma-jack you are probably right.

I've noticed at full moon times people go all strange. It is now gibbous and looks beautiful in the clear night air refreshed by some very welcome rain.

I checked google zeitgeist today for internet traffic statistics but the April figures are not out yet and Estonia is not a country listed.

What is the status of the genome project in Estonia?

Evil Purc ütles ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_brigades

I wonder if jaffa...
Fits the description anyway, not to mention the timing (appeared out of nowhere just at the same time Russia is conducting attacks on Estonian cyberspace etc.)
Would be flattering to have one's own FSB agent assigned to one's blog. =)

Eleonora ütles ...

Following from that Wikipedia site

Destruction of inconvenient forums. For example, on the site of the Moscow News, all critics of Putin and the FSB "were suddenly and without any explanation banned from all discussions, despite their having broken none of the site’s rules of conduct. All the postings of this group of readers, going back a year and a half, were erased by the site administrator."

Eleonora ütles ...

Kristjan msut be at work or has been cyber-zapped

Eleonora ütles ...

oops
read must for msut

Giustino ütles ...

What is the status of the genome project in Estonia?

Good question. It hit some obstacles a few years ago because a private investor pulled out.

Now the project is solely being funded by the state and they are again collecting samples.

Nobody knows I'm a dog ütles ...

jaffa,

I have just one question for you:

Does Estonia have a right to exist?

Nobody knows I'm a dog ütles ...

jaffa,

I respect your bravery against irony and that is why I insist that you take a look at this: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/384025

Giustino ütles ...

Well well, it goes from the EU to the Russian Foreign Ministry to Nashi.

Nashi caves

Kaur ütles ...

I found a very interesting piece of news from Hinnavaatlus.ee foorum that was published on the 25th of April and says that China has also removed one Soviet monument from the city centre. Unforutnately I couldn't find an english version of it.
http://www.rian.ru/world/asia/20070428/64584434.html

Kaur ütles ...

Sorry, wrong link.

http://community.livejournal.com/ru_politics/6823626.html

space_maze ütles ...

I personally don't think jaffa is a payed troll. He's just too incoherent and too alienating.

I have encountered people that I am virtually sure to be on a Kremlin payroll after having read the wiki article posted here, in Austrian news site comments. They just SO fit the description, in every way. Hell, the insults various posters have given to my mental health have been identical!

(For anyone that knows German, and wants pain: derstandard.at, search for "Estland". You'll find them.)

These people scare me. I know they're full of crap, as I've been to Estonia, and kind of have a grasp on the situation - and know that the crap that they give from themselves is crap. But if I didn't .. they're so organised, seem so determined and prepared for everything, I can see how unknowing people might be fooled by these monkeys.

Jaffa however .. my god, who here would buy a word of what he's giving off here? With any level of (lack of) knowledge regarding Estonia?

It's just too nonsense - if that is even possible for people close to the Kremlin ;-)

karLos ütles ...

eleonora,
where to begin.

first of all, jaffa is an idiot zealot. if you can't see it, i'm sorry for your blindness.

Australia does not have a good record on human rights. The current leader is less than perfect and is doing everything he can to win the election later this year.

the australian record on human rights is pretty standard. compare it a hundred other countries, and you'll see atrocities so much worse. interestingly perhaps, modern aboriginals in australia also like to blame all their problems on others, without taking any initiative to help themselves.

Australians are sports mad and the average person is not really interested in what goes on in the rest of the world, unless it concerns sport!

yeah, thanks. but i don't live in a country of idiot illiterate philistines.

Australia is a country of migrants. The first Europeans in the form of British people arrived just over 200 years ago and the indigenous Aboriginal people (here for over 30,000 years)have been dispossed ever since.

so are you making an argument in favour of estonians, or just bitching about australia some more?

Few Australians speak more than one language, English. A second language is not compulsory at school and many schools do not even have the capacity to teach another language. It is an island country and very inward looking.

bullsh*t. this IS a country of immigrants, and as such speaks every language on the face of the planet. in my apartment building alone, there is an italian family, and a brazilian family. my heritage is finnish and danish. high schools give you the option to learn a myriad of languages.

I think we have too much sunshine and life is too easy unlike you up there in the northern latitudes.

i agree with this... but i have no delusions about how lucky we are because of it.

why not learn something about australia. and estonia?

Eleonora ütles ...
Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.
Eleonora ütles ...

Karlos
I was trying to convey that even here, as in most countries there are problems and issues with minorities. I sense that Estonians think everything they see on Australian sitcoms as shown on Eesti TV, is an accurate portrayal.

Australians of British/Irish descent take their freedoms for granted and cannot begin to understand the loss of personal freedoms in a totalitarian state.

Please don't tell me you listen to and agree with the views of radio jocks like John Laws and Alan Jones.

Jaffa is a zealot but hardly an idiot. There have been some posts here equally uncompromising and fanatical. Are they idiots or just zealots?

8:49 AM

karLos ütles ...

there have been a lot of uncompromising posts here, but most of them have been reasoned, and well founded in logic and humanity. i have read each of this individuals posts, and see no reason, no logic... no root in history outside kremlin endorsement.

considering how close we came to being an island of japan in wwii, i don't think you'll find too many people in this country that take their freedom for granted.

and no, i equate allan jones' tabloid radio nonsense with unreasoned zealots just like comrade jaffa.

mina ütles ...

Interesting analysis on stratfor page:

http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=288063

Eleonora ütles ...

Karlos
On the contrary I think that in the general, it is only immigrants, refugees and the older people who lived north of the alleged Brisbane Line remember the threat of invasion and hence do not take their freedom for granted.

Unreasoned is a better adjective.

Eleonora ütles ...

And of course the diggers still alive who fought in PNG, Indonesia and the British Solomons, known to Americans as Guadalcanal.

Dodo ütles ...

we all are just puppets for Russias election campaign http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2422661.ece

Dodo ütles ...

europe/article2422661.ece