tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post4117982914991210662..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: pucker up, it's the nordic wayGiustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-66616386148095968682008-03-05T00:56:00.000+02:002008-03-05T00:56:00.000+02:00"our appeasement brought mostly only illusory bene..."our appeasement brought mostly only illusory benefits for the Kremlin"<BR/><BR/>maybe this estonian foreign policy owes more to the Soviet era than they'd like to admit.<BR/><BR/>Estonia sent people to Iraq too, and I'm very glad my taxes are not helping fund that little escapade (since I emigrated, like).eganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03907795141239035180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-14834321425408634142008-03-04T19:46:00.000+02:002008-03-04T19:46:00.000+02:00Well, as I tried to argue, it hasn't been a onesid...Well, as I tried to argue, it hasn't been a onesided situation. In fact during the Cold War our appeasement brought mostly only illusory benefits for the Kremlin and real benefits for Finland. Even now it doesn't seem like such a huge bonus for us to have an actively hostile great power along our over 1000 kilometre long border in a remote corner of Europe whose well being hasn't always been very crucial for the West. In any case for example during the Bronze Soldier crisis Finland was certainly active in its support of Estonia. The main thing of course is the NATO membership - and I for one have been quite satisfied that we haven't rushed for it. (And I don't think that I could really be classified as anything but a patriotic, anti-Kremlin Finn and a strong pro-Westerner.)stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-12632794567933779172008-03-04T19:34:00.000+02:002008-03-04T19:34:00.000+02:00It has not been a very idealistic position but the...<I>It has not been a very idealistic position but then we had a very good teacher about the benefits of idealism in foreign policy. His name was Josif Stalin.</I><BR/><BR/>You really should choose your teachers more carefully. And consider whether some lessons are antiquated. :-)<BR/><BR/>What really pains me is that Finland could and should be a much more important player in world affairs. You have a great wealth of knowledge to offer to developing countries, and you could be a very strong ally to developed Western countries who, surely, are your real friends.<BR/><BR/>You are a strong and highly moral and ethical people and yet, in international affairs, you've chosen a route of utter timidness and narrow self-interest. I mean, aren't you, as a people, tired of wondering <I>"onko Moskovasta taas tullut käsky"</I> whenever an important international issue is at stake and your leadership... does nothing? <BR/><BR/>I want to see a Finland that cares and participates. Don't you?khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195860424986921263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-71317402972600510032008-03-04T19:04:00.000+02:002008-03-04T19:04:00.000+02:00Наблюдатель said...They speak Italian at Joe Arcur...Наблюдатель said...<BR/><BR/><I>They speak Italian at Joe Arcuri's? Nice. I remember ordering in Italian at Controvento, and they could not understand me. Actually this is common to all European countries--you are rarely served in the language of the country you are in or in the language of the cuisine they purport to serve</I><BR/><BR/>Sure. Although when kidding Giustino, I was referring the omnipresent group of good old boys who usually occupy the same table (<I>Stammtisch? Tavolo fisso?</I>) all day, every day, in such places, and schmooze the people they know when they come in. Which is why I alternate between chains like Starbucks, Second Cup, Java Joe's, and more flavorful places like Arcuri's. Very friendly, and fun...<BR/><BR/>My turn to ask: Haven't been to Controvento in years. Still on Vene tn.? Is it still run by a guy called Paolo from Naples? (I now how restos flip over everywhere.) <BR/><BR/>When I was last there, this Paolo took me into the kitchen and I assumed the chef and sous-chef were Italians, from Paolo's brief exchange with them. To my amazement, both were Latinos, Hispanophones; can't remember for sure, but I think a Paraguayan and an Ecuadorian. Seems they had to acquire some Italian to please the boss, and both responded to me in Estonian (as I have no Spanish and barely a few phrases in Italian). <BR/><BR/>Sorry about the tangent, Blogmaster, but in replying to Наблюдатель question, it occurred to me that perhaps there IS a tenuous link to the current thread, inasmuch as it shows that a decade ago some kitchen help in Tallinn WAS being linguistically integrated. Let's hear it for the Italo-Hispanic Gastronomical Party! <BR/>:)Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542671825995892455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-89049455959472053562008-03-04T18:42:00.000+02:002008-03-04T18:42:00.000+02:00Well, I certainly see it as being a part of that c...Well, I certainly see it as being a part of that continuum. You should have heard how lyrical Lipponen waxed over Tali-Ihantala, he certainly has no admiration for the Kremlin. Neither does Erkki, though admittedly he is a more complicated case. But the thing is that our appeasement of the Soviet Union is by and large seen to have been coldly successful by even the current generation of elite politicians (there are dissenting voices though, and the media gives quite a different impression). Successful meaning here as being in the selfish national interest of Finland. This I think is widely misunderstood in the West. <BR/><BR/>I don't see that we can long maintain this position of being an EU member but not a NATO member - still, there have been also benefits from it, and also a certain freedom of action. It has not been a very idealistic position but then we had a very good teacher about the benefits of idealism in foreign policy. His name was Josif Stalin.stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-84937071529153910982008-03-04T16:50:00.000+02:002008-03-04T16:50:00.000+02:00Stockholm, do you sincerely think that Mannerheim'...Stockholm, do you sincerely think that Mannerheim's icy blood runs in the veins of Tuomioja and Paavo Lipponen? See, I don't think anyone questions the diplomatic skills of Finland's 1940s leadership. <BR/><BR/>But, here's an example: a missile drops in Georgia. Sweden, Estonia, the UK, the US, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland send experts to aid Georgia in identifying the circumstances of the missile's drop. Finland sends ... nobody.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-63439712618685865362008-03-04T14:56:00.000+02:002008-03-04T14:56:00.000+02:00ps. To clarify the previous post a bit: I don't me...ps. To clarify the previous post a bit: I don't mean Giustino's post above (which sends bit mixed signals actually) but the wide spread stereotypes that it was partially invoking.stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-20005965080091033762008-03-04T14:42:00.000+02:002008-03-04T14:42:00.000+02:00Well, once again, we should consider history: ther...Well, once again, we should consider history: there have actually been several times when Finland has significantly benefitted from the Russian connection. In 1809 we got our own autonomous government when Russia got Finland from Sweden, even our own Diet, and eventually Finnish got to be an official language and we even established our national currency. Now that's not too bad and it is why we still have a statue of Alexander II on the Senate Square. Only in 1890's did the bad times come along with Russification but even in those conditions in 1905 we got universal suffrage and Eduskunta.<BR/><BR/>Then of course we got most murderously attacked by Stalin, twice, and for that second time in 1944 were left for dead by the West. So, the deal we got from Stalin was based on the desperate efforts of the Finnish army and the political skills of Mannerheim, Paasikivi and Kekkonen, and it was not really due to outsiders. (Which is why – though partially quite unjustifiably – many Finns feel that we need no lectures on the subject from the West.) In any case, all things considered it was a surprisingly good deal in some ways: we kept our Nordic system, integrated our economy with the West (having a very tame and protected market also in the East), and did not belong to any military alliances. I think Stalin understood quite well the language we spoke in the Winter War and the Continuation War (although that wouldn’t have helped us after the war without skillful diplomacy).<BR/><BR/>The price for this was to do some cynical toasting of eternal friendship with our "great neighbour" and to refrain from joining the Nato or taking anti-Soviet positions in the Cold War. Now Paasikivi and Kekkonen certainly had no illusions about the Soviet Union: they well knew what they were outwardly pretending not to know. But then Kekkonen got to play the sole autocrat and got even gradually demented, and our 60’s and 70’s youth radicals were so absolutely protected from the actual reality Communism that they started believing in it (in a way it was a measure of success). I would still say that in the end that was quite a meagre gain for the Kremlin thinking of their fairly dominating starting position of 1944.<BR/><BR/>Now, this is way different from the recent Estonian or even Western experience of Russia. We have not only bad and threatening memories, though we do, but in addition we have also managed several times to strike quite good bargains with them. As surprising as that is. By and large I would say that the independent Finland has been actually amazingly succesful in her dealings with Moscow. It is of course quite frustrating to combat somewhat uninformed outside perceptions of the historical experience of a small country: it is so easily to dismiss such quaint local perspectives – well, I guess Estonians have never encountered such imperial attitudes…stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-30815167379348606322008-03-04T10:26:00.000+02:002008-03-04T10:26:00.000+02:00They speak Italian at Joe Arcuri's? Nice. I rememb...They speak Italian at Joe Arcuri's? Nice. I remember ordering in Italian at Controvento, and they could not understand me. Actually this is common to all European countries--you are rarely served in the language of the country you are in or in the language of the cuisine they purport to serveНаблюдательhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18263962539998359184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-917547589929041012008-03-03T21:02:00.000+02:002008-03-03T21:02:00.000+02:00Funny, I was just over at Joe Arcuri's having an e...<I>Funny, I was just over at Joe Arcuri's having an espresso doppio and quoted you on this, and a couple of the goombahs said they'd like to TRY convincing you.</I><BR/><BR/>If they're Sicilians, they'll have to start by convincing me they're really Italian first ;)<BR/><BR/>(Now I am asking for the cement shoes treatment)Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-86126389368629210162008-03-03T20:57:00.000+02:002008-03-03T20:57:00.000+02:00Giustino said..."You'd have a hard time convincing...<I>Giustino said...<BR/>"You'd have a hard time convincing me a Sicilian and a Norwegian are both generic, white meat."</I><BR/><BR/>Funny, I was just over at Joe Arcuri's having an espresso doppio and quoted you on this, and a couple of the goombahs said they'd like to TRY convincing you. They would like to interview you for an outfit called the <I>Organo della Societa di etnografia Italiana e dell' istituto di storia</I>, but aren't sure where this <I>Tartaruga</I> place is where you hang out.<BR/> My own Italian is next to non-existent, so I didn't catch what else they said. Any idea what <I>il grosso coltello</I> or <I>bastardo</I> might mean?Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542671825995892455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-63753136186460717942008-03-03T15:00:00.000+02:002008-03-03T15:00:00.000+02:00I know. I have seen the generation gap where the u...I know. I have seen the generation gap where the under-30 Estonians from Russian-speaking families are completely integrated while their parents are not. And the young guys date eesti girls and they won't have any of this ethnic shit. But I've met the over-50 Russians who served in Russian Waffen SS in Afghanistan, celebtare the Russian Nazi army day, and hate Estonia. Let's hope they (the latter) die peacefully.<BR/>I like Zhenya Krishta. We used to correspond. I've always been his defender in vene Delfi and earned scorn and contempt of the klenoid fifth columnНаблюдательhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18263962539998359184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-9682036056537038332008-03-03T13:25:00.000+02:002008-03-03T13:25:00.000+02:00This is why Rudy and Jack and John and Obama could...<I>This is why Rudy and Jack and John and Obama could run for president and some of them won, some lost.<BR/>I wish it were true in Eestimaa.</I><BR/><BR/>It will happen in Eestimaa. The problem is that the Estonian Russians with national identity are like, barely 30. Give it time and you'll see them as ministers and professors and Indian chiefs.<BR/><BR/>Someday, when <A HREF="http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/k/r/krishtafovitsh/Parnu1.jpg" REL="nofollow">Krishtafovitch</A> is head of Isamaa-Res Publica Liit, we won't have to discuss this <I>jama</I> anymore.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-89404832062556063662008-03-03T13:05:00.000+02:002008-03-03T13:05:00.000+02:00Ah, Giustino, you are right, but as the late Saul ...Ah, Giustino, you are right, but as the late Saul Bellow said, you can safely say that you are Italian precisely because you KNOW that you are American and so does every one else, and there is no doubt.<BR/>This is why Rudy and Jack and John and Obama could run for president and some of them won, some lost.<BR/>I wish it were true in EestimaaНаблюдательhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18263962539998359184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-60802956421921444792008-03-03T12:16:00.000+02:002008-03-03T12:16:00.000+02:00To us Guiliani is not Italian but American. Kenned...<I>To us Guiliani is not Italian but American. Kennedy is not Irish but American. Obama is not African but American.</I> <BR/><BR/>Giuliani, to me, is quite Italian. And Ted Kennedy is certain Irish. However, I wouldn't vote for them on that basis. I wouldn't cry 'racism' if Giuliani lost to a guy named McCain just because the guy with a similar background to me didn't win. I definitely wasn't rooting for Antonin Scalia to get promoted to chief justice, just because he also eats lasagna at Easter.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-20530337150234068682008-03-03T12:03:00.000+02:002008-03-03T12:03:00.000+02:00Eruestlane, it's not the ISP, it's my physical add...Eruestlane, it's not the ISP, it's my physical address, and I don't want to change it. So I don't post in vene Delfi and don't argue with Klenski and Fu.<BR/>Justin, I understand your distaste for ehtnic politics. To us Guiliani is not Italian but American. Kennedy is not Irish but American. Obama is not African but American. But I make a point here by illustrating it with two examples:<BR/>1) An Estonian delegation came to the States, and one guy kept referring to another as a "Russian" although he also was an Estonian citizen. Needless to say the Americans could not even understand what he was talking about, which is fine.<BR/>2) Having said this, we live in the real world here in Europe, and in Tiblamaa ehtnicity is something that gets you killed or deported. It contributed to the fall of the "Soviet Union" and I fervently hope that it will speed final disintegration of "Russia." But if you are in the information business as is yours truly, and have to give accurate information to the decision-makers back home, you have no choice but distinguish between various ethnic groups and nationalities. You just have to know who the Kabardins, Adygue, Cherkes, Abkhaz, Abazin, and Shapsug people are--they are the same people, what's left of the Great Circassian Country after Russian genocide in the XIX Century.<BR/>Yes, in Estonia all Estonian citizens are Estonians--and if they aren't, they should be--because this is the norm. But we do have the occupation leftovers who should have been deported but unfortunately weren't, and they do not belive in it, they worshiped the bronze idol, the symbol of fascist occupation, and they hate Estonia and all things Estonian. This is why we have to put a clothespeg on our nose and deal with the trashНаблюдательhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18263962539998359184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-44269561328447645672008-03-03T11:44:00.000+02:002008-03-03T11:44:00.000+02:00If Estonia is inclusive enough, over time all of t...<I>If Estonia is inclusive enough, over time all of these people in Soviet purgatory will eventually adopt Estonian nationality, not because the state forces them too, but because Estonian nationality is a living, breathing organic thing, that can swallow Soviet nationality, which is about as alive as a petrified forest.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I think you're right.khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195860424986921263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-60092233904688593602008-03-03T10:16:00.000+02:002008-03-03T10:16:00.000+02:00I guess it depends on the definition of nationalit...<I>I guess it depends on the definition of nationality. Is a local Russian who doesn't speak Estonian an Estonian? An Estonian would say no, the Russian himself would probably say yes. We define nationality through language or ethnicity, they through territory.</I><BR/><BR/>We are in transition again. During the 'Wabariigi aeg', Estonia built a national identity of which Estonian Swedes and Peipsi Russians were constituent parts. <BR/><BR/>The Soviet 'genocide' in Estonia was not about ethnicity -- it was against nationality. They deported Estonian Swedes and Peipsi Russians as well -- their community leaders, priests, businessmen, <I>et cetera</I>.<BR/><BR/>Within the Soviet Union, Eesti NSV had to balance itself between the demands of the 'Sovietizing' communist elite and the local 'national' communists. A similar tug of war went on within Latvia and Lithuania.<BR/><BR/>During this period, it could be argued there were two 'nationalities' coexisting in Estonia -- Estonian -- represented by Eesti NSV -- and 'Soviet' -- represented by the central authorities in Moscow.<BR/><BR/>The period 1987-1991 started a renationalization process. Everything was reinterpreted through a Western nationalist discourse. Estonians regained their nation-state identity. "Soviet" people were reinterpreted as Russians, Georgians, Azeris who -- at some point -- will become a constituent part of Estonian nationality, as the Estonian Swedes and Peipsi Russians once had.<BR/><BR/>The problem people continuously refer to is not a 'Russian' problem -- because, as we have seen, there is an older Russian population here that is integrated into Estonian nationality.<BR/><BR/>It's a 'Soviet' nationality versus 'Estonian' nationality problem. It's those with 'Soviet' nationality who feel most under attack, because their state doesn't really exist anymore, and all they have left is May 9 ceremonies and 'Soviet Army Day'.<BR/><BR/>If Estonia is inclusive enough, over time all of these people in Soviet purgatory will eventually adopt Estonian nationality, not because the state forces them too, but because Estonian nationality is a living, breathing organic thing, that can swallow Soviet nationality, which is about as alive as a petrified forest.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-26594501254135229982008-03-03T07:11:00.000+02:002008-03-03T07:11:00.000+02:00Estonia is often blamed for her language policies,...Estonia is often blamed for her language policies, remembering Jörn Donner from Finland in a report for the European Parliament where he was calling for a second official language in Estonia during the mid 90s.<BR/><BR/>I wanted to add more sources about the unstable early years after 1991 but while thinking about it by adding the jäägrikriis, the pullapääkriis or the mayor of Narva-Jöesuu, Juri Andrejew, who refused to held the referendum for autonomy in Ida Virumaa 1993 in his city and who got a lot of criticism from russian speaking citizens for his decision I rather would underline this, it shows how Estonia ticks:<BR/><BR/>'In 1990 Estonia had been the first Soviet republic to defy the Soviet army by offering alternative service to Estonian residents scheduled to be drafted. Most Estonians, however, simply began avoiding the draft. After independence, Estonia instituted its own compulsory military service, with a minimum term of one year beginning at age eighteen. About 12,000 males reach the age of eighteen every year. Young Estonian men continue to spurn the call, however; only one-third of eligible draftees turned out for the spring 1993 conscription. In addition, the Estonian military faces a limited pool from which to choose because only citizens can be drafted and because restrictions have been placed on the induction of university students.'<BR/><BR/>http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-4358.htmlJens-Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18304784095687896639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-79479827811692007472008-03-03T05:05:00.000+02:002008-03-03T05:05:00.000+02:00Say what you will, but Russian totalitarianism has...Say what you will, but Russian totalitarianism has it's certain allure: http://www.exile.ru/blog/detail.php?BLOG_ID=17377&AUTHOR_ID=<BR/><BR/>Granted, they all look out awfully of shape except the skinny one.<BR/><BR/>Now, had Rooskies done the same demonstration in defense of the bronze soldier ... my guess is, it still be standing and the world support would be behing Nochnoi Pazor.<BR/><BR/>Make love, not war.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-10645750131466224592008-03-03T00:20:00.000+02:002008-03-03T00:20:00.000+02:00Re the hair-splitting about 'national' or 'state l...Re the hair-splitting about 'national' or 'state language' ... 'Riigikeel' is pretty much in the ballpark as an appropriate designation. 'Official language' wouldn't translate well into Esto: 'ametlik keel' would smack of 'officious language,' and god knows we all get enough of THAT in dealing with bureaucrats in ANY country. :)<BR/> In Germany, Austria and Liechtenstein, I believe German is called 'Staatssprache; in France, French is 'la langue officielle du pays.' <BR/> Oddly enough, Italy didn't enshrine Italian as an official language in law until March 2007. But not without controversy and 75 parliamentary deputies voting against.<BR/> Federico Bricolo from the Northern League party, said his nationality, and therefore his language, was not Italian but Venetian.<BR/> Franco Russo, of Italy's main Communist party, said that enshrining Italian smacked of Benito Mussolini's attempts to "Italianize" the country by force.<BR/> Latin remains the official language of the Vatican, but the Pope has been known to cut some slack for Italian speakers. ;)Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542671825995892455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-63495896106408191702008-03-03T00:11:00.000+02:002008-03-03T00:11:00.000+02:00And here we have yet again wandered far off topic....And here we have yet again wandered far off topic...Rainerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11160091690005391250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-86895730477601133042008-03-02T23:21:00.000+02:002008-03-02T23:21:00.000+02:00Nabljudatel - welcome to the club. I've also been...Nabljudatel - welcome to the club. I've also been banned from the russian delfi. Lucky for me, I have multiple access points and I never use the same nick, so I can still continue to fuck with them. Just for sport. :-)LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-68457739460099409682008-03-02T23:07:00.000+02:002008-03-02T23:07:00.000+02:00Besides, how would you say "national language" in ...Besides, how would you say "national language" in Estonian? "Rahvuskeel"? "Rahvakeel"? It just doesn't work in a meaningful way.khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195860424986921263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-58694005686107450572008-03-02T23:03:00.000+02:002008-03-02T23:03:00.000+02:00What is kind of weird is this focus on the state. ...<I>What is kind of weird is this focus on the state. It's always the 'state' language, not the 'national' language. But Estonian is the national language.</I><BR/><BR/>I guess it depends on the definition of nationality. Is a local Russian who doesn't speak Estonian an Estonian? An Estonian would say no, the Russian himself would probably say yes. We define nationality through language or ethnicity, they through territory.<BR/><BR/>So for an Estonian, Estonian is obviously the national language of the Estonians, but not of those who don't speak the language. It is, however, the state language for all.khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195860424986921263noreply@blogger.com