tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post8838936215280118269..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: Can Comedy Cure the WWII Blues?Giustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-81814035465921618922007-08-03T21:51:00.000+03:002007-08-03T21:51:00.000+03:00First thought that came to my mind that such jokes...First thought that came to my mind that such jokes would become bearable, when all first-hand participants are dead + one more generation. Then again, if Estonians swallowed Ivan Orav (and actually most considered it a brilliant stuff) then maybe it can happen faster.<BR/>And I feel that many, especially younger people are really tired of this victim game (ooh, our history is soooo miserable!). They would like to put it behind and go on, which is probably good idea. Unless Russia screws up again, of course.Wahurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15861003012357572291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-64655544752934240192007-08-03T21:03:00.000+03:002007-08-03T21:03:00.000+03:00How is foogt in English, fogd? Anyway, most of Est...How is foogt in English, fogd? Anyway, most of Estonians seem to be nasty bastards, if you read Henrik. Somebody should tell that to all those British bachelors.plasma-jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485039580759398780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-16487653593689018482007-08-03T20:58:00.000+03:002007-08-03T20:58:00.000+03:00I wonder if it's still all right to feel comfortab...I wonder if it's still all right to feel comfortable reading from Henrik's "Chronicles of Livland" about men from Sakala roasting Latvian village elders or eating the heart of <I>foogt</I> of Järva.plasma-jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485039580759398780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-70580707702452398892007-08-03T17:57:00.000+03:002007-08-03T17:57:00.000+03:00Bashing the Erna retk is going too far imo. The or...Bashing the Erna retk is going too far imo. The original Erna guys were volunteers to the Finnish army who decided to come and help liberate Estonia from the Soviets. Just that they were anti-Soviet doesn't make them fascist automatically. Of course Russia is trying to play that card because The Soviet Union Was The Greatest State Ever (tm) and noone in their right mind could have opposed it.<BR/><BR/>The Erna Raid is a great military game though which doesn't put too much pressure on the historical side. And anyway, why should we feel ashamed celebrating the men who helped dozens of Estonian civilians escape the deadly grip of the Red Army?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076822279861048442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-6110142748027108782007-08-03T14:55:00.000+03:002007-08-03T14:55:00.000+03:00I think the ERNA Raid is fantastic! There are team...I think the ERNA Raid is fantastic! There are teams from Finland, Denmark, Norway, Germany and the USA involved, so it is quite an international event. Here is the website:<BR/>http://www.erna.ee/en/martintghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16840407742014556024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-45620914103346916082007-08-03T12:49:00.000+03:002007-08-03T12:49:00.000+03:00Comedy is a good idea, but that ERNA Retk or howev...Comedy is a good idea, but that ERNA Retk or however it is called doesn't seem to be a very good idea, specially in those days when Estonia is involved in an information war about it's own image. <BR/><BR/>I was appalled when I saw it on tv. There was this Kahvel showman saying it was a sporting event and nothing more. But hey, you can organize that sporting event in a different place where there are no nostalgic WWII veterans. And by the way, shooting around and dropping grenades in the forest is not a very polite entertainment.Juan Manuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01997278614759180471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-9161681039416643952007-08-03T01:15:00.000+03:002007-08-03T01:15:00.000+03:00One should be careful to simplify, and addressing ...One should be careful to simplify, and addressing 13th century Estonia as a colony to me seems like a late 19th century cliché ...<BR/><BR/>Among the vassals of the Danish kings a certain percentage of Estonians is above doubt, and Estonian historians have always tried hard to include the Uexkuells, Wrangels, Maydells and other pur sang Baltic Barons who named themselves after Estonian possessions into that lot - and I guess these and other families at least married into the "autochthonous" Estonian upper set of that day and age to gain ground in a country where to survive you needed cousins and brothers in arms ready to take your side, and be it to battle with the Estonians of a neighbouring county or clan.<BR/><BR/>As far as I know up to Jüriöö ülestõus in 1343 Estonians in many ways were treated as equals and naturally enjoyed the same right to bear arms as all freemen did.<BR/><BR/>So it is much more complicated and, once again, historical and ahistorical stereotypes are mostly justified when they serve the purpose of comedy and the subsequent undermining of clichés.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11570222255588113253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-43268604898769846392007-08-02T21:38:00.000+03:002007-08-02T21:38:00.000+03:00I read that a Russian alderman in Riga wants to b...I read that a Russian alderman in Riga wants to ban use of the number 55 (as in the address 55 Pardaugavas iela) because of its resemblance to "SS" (Schutzstaffel).<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is too early for humour. <BR/><BR/>Of course, a humorous treatment doesnt have to be farce, like Malev. You could come up with a darkly humorous, nihilist treatment like Catch 22 (the book at least). <BR/><BR/>For Westerners, 1944 in Estland is too obscure and bloody. Whereas anyone familiar with colonialism in any of its guises can identify with the 13th century and Malev.<BR/><BR/>EvilPurc: Was Charles Manson in Estonia? He would have been about 10 or 11. Andres Kahar, do you have anything on that?Kristopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01394211030848077681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-19109662263203434392007-08-02T19:55:00.000+03:002007-08-02T19:55:00.000+03:00Think about all those German and Russian tombstone...<I>Think about all those German and Russian tombstones in Ida Viru county. Why of all places did they die in Estonia? There's no downhill skiing here. No vast reserves of oil to export. The harbors are nice, but the Russians have learned to live with Ust-Luga. Anyway you add it up, you have slightly more than one million people, some farm land, some lakes, and a lot of berry and mushroom yielding forests. The idea of a "world war" occuring in this remote part of Europe is, I am sorry, a joke.</I><BR/><BR/>They died because St. Petersburg is a big city and holding that was important to the Germans. The Russians couldn't allow it. And Estonia is basically the front hall of St. Petersburg. They didn't fight because of Estonia, the fighting was because of Leningrad and the fact that Estonia was in the way, was just a coincidence. Like most wars, it was about influence and land. It wasn't a joke at all. I imagine it was pretty critical for both sides to either take or keep St. Petersburg as the second biggest Russian city.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076822279861048442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-28900075753199867742007-08-02T14:55:00.000+03:002007-08-02T14:55:00.000+03:00to whom it may concern:http://www.estonica.org/eng...to whom it may concern:<BR/>http://www.estonica.org/eng/lugu.html?menyy_id=95&kateg=43&alam=61&leht=11<BR/>lines out the background of the reduction of manors and King Charles´s role as king of peasants.<BR/><BR/>Vana hea rootsi aeg might not have been that golden age as that it is often portrayed, though, if one bears in mind that the "Swedish imperialism" in that period meant war after war. The goal of abolishing "serfdom" was not necessarily a purely humanitarian idea. It may also have been one way - among others - to guarantee the filling of the ranks.<BR/><BR/>And from the nobility´s point of view the reduction in many cases was just a plain violation of the law.<BR/><BR/>I agree that it is more than difficult to judge the behaviour of our ancestors, and this applies also to the generation of vana-ema and vana-isa. So he has a point who argues that a comedy makes probably more sense than any film that claims to depict "how it really was ..."Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11570222255588113253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-63982334452176258162007-08-02T14:33:00.000+03:002007-08-02T14:33:00.000+03:00Can Comedy Cure the WWII Blues? The title brought ...Can Comedy Cure the WWII Blues? <BR/><BR/>The title brought to my mind immediately the superb Brittish serial Allo! Allo! from the 80´s so it has been done already by brits but I think we have long way to go there and cons. russians I have serious doubts that they will ever get there and laughing at the matter or just looking through the comic point of view will be blasphemous also in 100 years for them :).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04935901565998236413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-74280728720015822322007-08-02T13:02:00.000+03:002007-08-02T13:02:00.000+03:00War is alway ridiculos. Doesn't matter which one. ...War is alway ridiculos. Doesn't matter which one. Russians have seen Estonia as "window to the Europe". Strategical location. But true, that's the only thing that comes to my mind why anybody would want to have power over that almost not populated piece of land.<BR/>Besides, then comes the issue of plain old bloodthurst and need to surrender "smaller and weaker" ones that is rather characteristic (also ignorant) for the most of bigger countries. And to the smaller countries/people who find some country/person even smaller than themselves.Crazy Worldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612095068315176644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-81760801300267917152007-08-02T07:01:00.000+03:002007-08-02T07:01:00.000+03:00Not to forget JR200 and Soomepoisid: those uniform...Not to forget JR200 and Soomepoisid: those uniforms I would not call hateful, nor were they forced on. Anyway, the matter itself is very clear: Estonians had obviously absolutely nothing to do with Nazi ideology (to just mention the thing even if in the negative, feels stupid), this issue of Waffen-SS is just an indication what nightmarish things can happen when you are situated between two equally awful, equally hysterical powerful terror states.stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-14276577733409808782007-08-02T07:00:00.000+03:002007-08-02T07:00:00.000+03:00There is something liberating in laughter when fee...There is something liberating in laughter when feeling immense sorrow. I have felt quilty couple of times in my life after fighting that uncontrollable urge to laugh at funerals. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, here's something deliciously un-PC about the horror of 9/11 http://www.exile.ru/2001-November-15/the_three_amigos_a_tale_of_love_and_loss_in_manhattan.htmlLPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-56338555446341057212007-08-02T01:24:00.000+03:002007-08-02T01:24:00.000+03:00RE: Kristopher’s point about Georgia in 1864 and U...RE: Kristopher’s point about Georgia in 1864 and Union General Sherman’s scorched earth policy (see above).<BR/><BR/>This was indeed an historic event to behold. The Caucasian War had just ended in May 1864 with the march of Tsarist and Georgian troops on Abkhazia. It looked as though the Abkhazian and Adygeyan causes were all but lost. Shamil’s dream of a Union of Mountain Peoples seemed dead. Georgian nationalism and colonialism were bubbling; Georgian independence was in prospect, though still years off. <BR/><BR/>Then <A HREF="http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/WIReader/Images/Big/WER1238-1.jpeg" REL="nofollow">General William Tecumseh Sherman</A><BR/> arrived on the scene. No one saw this coming.<BR/><BR/>Historian Aly Sultany had this to say:<BR/><BR/>‘Georgian intellectuals and Tsarist officers were confounded, indeed perplexed, by the unprecedented arrival of this raucous American on the scene. I.P. Shekkyvashinidze, an aide-de-camp at the Batumi Campfire, met General Sherman and quoted the Union General as declaring the following,<BR/><BR/><I><B>“I ain’t sure how we gots here. Took a hard left at Savannah. There was smoke. There were drinks. Couldn’t understand a damned thing anyone was saying. They’s sounded like Russkies. Goddam Russkies. I just started setting fire to everything. There were some fellas in fur hats cheering for me so I’s gots to keep going. I was dancing the Kartuli with General Ulysses who said keep going only it wasn’t Ulysses and I don’t know what the hell they put in that wine!”</I></B><BR/><BR/>According to historian Vasil Lidel Heart, General Sherman sobered up the following Thursday. But during his short stay in Caucasia, he picked up a few regional techniques for implementing “total war” against the enemy. On Friday, Sherman started heading west again, back to <I>Georgia</I>.<BR/><BR/>During the ruckus, however, northern Caucasian tribal hero Imam Shamil was quoted as saying, ‘Sherman may be a schlemiel, but he’s our schlemiel!’<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/worldhistory/archive-files/5000/5959f.jpg" REL="nofollow">Here is a rare drawing of Shamil with Sherman</A>. (Shamil is on the horse; Sherman is sitting in the middle.) Shamil was so impressed by Sherman’s “War is hell” speech (northern Caucasus version) that he presented Sherman with a giant feather duster. Sherman cherished that gift: years later, during his short stint as US secretary of war, Sherman was reputed to have kept the ‘cleanest, most dust-free office of any public official.’<BR/><BR/>According to Sultany, I.P. Shekkyvashinidze was present for the Giant Feather Duster Presentation near modern-day Sukhumi:<BR/><BR/><I><B>“Sherman was quite upset that he had to sit down and Shamil got to sit up on a horse. Sherman felt emasculated and he complained to Imam Shamil. At one point, Sherman threatened to set Shamil’s horse on fire. Shamil told Sherman to stop being a dumb fuckin’ Yankee and that if he wanted the giant feather duster so much then he should just shut up, sit down and pose.”</I></B><BR/><BR/>Another lesser-known fact:<BR/><BR/>The song “Georgia on the Mind” by Gorrel/Carmichael was actually based on Sherman’s letters to a woman named Dudukhana who ran a southern fried chicken joint near Sukhumi.ARKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16714977069646966097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-17368446685761357052007-08-02T01:12:00.000+03:002007-08-02T01:12:00.000+03:00Good post, G.Humour’s a funny thing. So subjective...Good post, G.<BR/><BR/>Humour’s a funny thing. So subjective. No clear rules or lines. <I>Quo Vadis</I>? There’s the safe, white-bread <I>Everybody Loves Raymond</I> route. Or we go Lenny Bruce, Lewis Black, or even David Cross or Margaret Cho. (All NorAm references, I know. But they come up sometimes in this forum, quite naturally, don’t they?)<BR/><BR/>A few rules of thumb with humour:<BR/><BR/>Humour = tragedy + time. (Twain, Woody)<BR/><BR/>If it bends, it’s funny; if it breaks, not. (Woody)<BR/><BR/>If you think you’ve gone too far, then you really haven’t. (Hitchens)<BR/><BR/>If everyone in the room is laughing, then you’ve failed. (Hitchens again)<BR/><BR/>Irony and humour are the “glory of the slaves” (or powerless) – the one thing that power has an impossible time controlling or stamping out. (Milosz)<BR/><BR/>Canadian filmmaker/writer Ken Finkleman – look him up if you haven’t; genius – made a joke about making a sequel to <I>Shoa</I>. He described the Holocaust as the ultimate ‘pie in the face’ because it was so horrifying. Only a year or so after 9/11, he was writing clever, political gags about the terrorist attack in his film <I>Escape from the Newsroom</I>. <BR/><BR/>Daring. Edgy. Provocative. But, for a Canuck, that’s probably the equivalent of a Balt doing WW2 SS jokes.<BR/><BR/>Mind you, from my time in Estonia and Latvia, I did hear some very edgy, off colour jokes on that general topic, albeit using the fictional Russian hero Stirlitz as proxy.<BR/><BR/>Given the general reaction to Rein Lang playing Mister Dressup, I’d say it’s a bit too early. Audiences are still humourless about recent revelations that Kreutzwald actually compiled <I>Kalevipoeg</I> as a 19th C Romantic version of a French bedroom farce, replete with Oedipal and homosexual undertones. (That said, back in 1994, I did see a very amateurish burlesquey version of Kalevipoeg performed in Tartu, for real. Just recalled that now, during the writing of this bit. Just goes to show: nothing is, and few things should be, sacred or off-limits.)<BR/><BR/>As for the general discussion of Estonia, Nazis, SS, Holocaust, Wiesenthal, etc… I think I’ll follow the lead of Stan, Kyle, Cartman and Kenny in the <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUCnNJJYJEM" REL="nofollow">“Krazy Kripples”</A> episode of <I>South Park</I>… proud "crips" Jimmy and Timmy are pissed at that “butthole” Christopher Reeve for making like a cripple, because <I>true</I> cripples born that way… Stan <I>et al</I> opt to ‘stay out of that one.’<BR/><BR/>Btw, does “SS” really stand for “Super S’fine”?ARKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16714977069646966097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-21332489792121444032007-08-01T23:47:00.000+03:002007-08-01T23:47:00.000+03:00You are right about the local nobility being again...You are right about the local nobility being against it, but he did it anyway. This was called reduction, lands were returned to the crown. De jure this amounted to abolishing serfdom in most of Estonia.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-66038233258166663052007-08-01T23:28:00.000+03:002007-08-01T23:28:00.000+03:00Evil Puric, as far as I know, Karl XI wanted to an...Evil Puric, as far as I know, Karl XI wanted to and planned to abolish serfdom in Estonia but he didn't, because the local ruling class was against it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-90255596567931150912007-08-01T22:40:00.000+03:002007-08-01T22:40:00.000+03:00Yes well...many, many thanks go out to the Russian...Yes well...many, many thanks go out to the Russians for making life interesting. No counterarguments there =]Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-61644869117050098832007-08-01T20:31:00.000+03:002007-08-01T20:31:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Rein Kuresoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05465030993371711197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-63922268657173239962007-08-01T20:30:00.000+03:002007-08-01T20:30:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Rein Kuresoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05465030993371711197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-10433083300252846282007-08-01T20:28:00.000+03:002007-08-01T20:28:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Rein Kuresoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05465030993371711197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-26157735264976995792007-08-01T19:47:00.000+03:002007-08-01T19:47:00.000+03:00It turns out the Estonians who fought for Sweden a...It turns out the Estonians who fought for Sweden against the Russians are also "on par" with the men in Vabadussõda. I guess that makes them "fascist". =P<BR/><BR/>Too bad Sweden lost the war, with men like Forselius around, the national awakening would have started about a hundred year earlier in a much more friendly and civilized environment. Just to think of all the possible positive results...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-3844158336180432292007-08-01T19:36:00.000+03:002007-08-01T19:36:00.000+03:00Before the Great Northern War the Swedes formed mi...Before the Great Northern War the Swedes formed militias out of Estonians and Latvians (7000-8000 men), these units were involved in combat, I assume they did not have uniforms. As soon as the war started Sweden began to recruit men to their regular army, many joined voluntarily with the aim of keeping Estonia as a part of Sweden because Swedish rule was/is considered as a golden era in Estonia due to all the progress in education, culture and so forth, but most importantly because Karl XI abolished serfdom in Estonia for the first time (with the Russians came the return of serfdom). Sweden was also culturally much closer due to more than half of the subjects of the kingdom being finno-ugric.<BR/>The uniforms looked like this:<BR/>http://www.acedia.se/bilder/GNW1.jpgUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-90425016031693655662007-08-01T18:15:00.000+03:002007-08-01T18:15:00.000+03:00There you have it, nothing to be ashamed about due...<I>There you have it, nothing to be ashamed about due to the Estonian Legion, units committed to keeping the yoke of bolshevism out of Estonia, they are quite "on par" with the soldiers in Vabadussõda, in fact many of them had participated in Vabadussõda.</I><BR/><BR/>Except they were fighting as part of the German Army, not the Estonian Army. And they lost, unlike in 1918. That's two strikes right there.<BR/><BR/>I saw a nice book somewhere that catalogued all the uniforms Estonians have worn. I did not know, for example, that Estonians fought in the Great Northern War as part of the imperial Swedish army.<BR/><BR/>I wonder what those uniforms looked like ...Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.com