tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post8170461907403406367..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: sügisetuulGiustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-11679085602816816352009-10-24T22:13:59.831+02:002009-10-24T22:13:59.831+02:00Citizenship should be based on affinity, birth-rig...Citizenship should be based on affinity, birth-right and loyalty. Even more, it might be argued that it should be based on love for a country (not necessarily the country of birth). Like the mentioned case of Herman Simm, many passport-carrying Estonians do not love their country. <br /><br />At the same time, it should also be allowed for double citizenship which the law currently does not allow (it exists only for those who accidentally happen to acquire several nationalities, like children from multinational families).<br /><br />Estonia does need its own loyal and dutiful citizens as well as new people be they born here or who move here and have the right skills and/or ties. (I'm thinking about the new people who have moved here during the last 10-15 years).<br /><br />Regarding Hispanic people in the US, contrary to Russian emigres to Estonia during the Soviet period and some of their children, they do not go to their own schools with instruction in Spanish nor do they feel as pawns in geopolitical games. They learn English and become mainstream in US society.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218023456805774255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-78726362127882489062009-10-23T10:46:53.754+02:002009-10-23T10:46:53.754+02:00Bacchus, where in Tallinn do you live? Lasnamäe?
...<i>Bacchus, where in Tallinn do you live? Lasnamäe?</i><br /><br />No, I live downtown near the A. Le Coq stadium.Pierce Bacchushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111492116347105909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-19155251519233115412009-10-23T10:22:58.251+02:002009-10-23T10:22:58.251+02:00"I would be interested to see birth records t..."I would be interested to see birth records that tracked the number of births between Russian speaking Estonians and Estonian speaking Estonians"<br />First: Ethnic Russians are not at all Russian speaking Estonians, they are Russians.<br />In 2008 in Tallinn 5425 children were born, 3244 them had ethnic Estonian mother (59,8 %). So that birth rate among Estonians is a bit higher than among Russians.Meelishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06624197502208867055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-64729512245761862272009-10-23T00:06:27.760+02:002009-10-23T00:06:27.760+02:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Pierce Bacchushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111492116347105909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-67028224238614450122009-10-22T22:38:38.163+02:002009-10-22T22:38:38.163+02:00Bacchus, where in Tallinn do you live? Lasnamäe?
...Bacchus, where in Tallinn do you live? Lasnamäe?<br /><br />I don't think more national languages are going to help. As others have pointed out, Russian is an important language in Tallinn and in Ida-Virumaa, and it's likely to remain as such in the foreseeable future; and there, everything is already in both languages (pragmatism wins).<br /><br />A lot of the feeling by some Russian speakers that Estonia is not "supporting them" comes, it seems, from Russian-language TV channels and media from the Russian federation. I don't think any gestures to win the hearts of the Russians who still look up to Putin as their leader will really work.Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-77635480760856672952009-10-22T22:02:32.803+02:002009-10-22T22:02:32.803+02:00Tallinn is a bilingual city already. All adverts ...Tallinn is a bilingual city already. All adverts come in the mail bilingually. You can be served in any business in Russian. All legal forms are available in Russian. Russian if already virtually universal alongside Estonian in Tallinn.<br /><br />As such, you don't have to make Russian language legally official, demographics have taken care of that. English isn't an official language in the U.S, but a Spanish speaker could live in Miami and get along just fine without it. <br /><br />I would be interested to see birth records that tracked the number of births between Russian speaking Estonians and Estonian speaking Estonians. <br /><br />I would think, judging from my Tallinn neighborhood, that Russian as a first home language is going to overtake Estonian in short order. The Estonians around here are having no kids or just one/two while the Russian speakers are producing larger numbers.Pierce Bacchushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111492116347105909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-56381180935858985422009-10-19T23:19:41.568+02:002009-10-19T23:19:41.568+02:00Argument against russian citizenship - this gives ...Argument against russian citizenship - this gives to Putin easy cause to step in as to protect their citizen<br />I am absolutely against russian as official language - then the result is what we have seen 30 years ago, when at the shop in Tallinn you had to ask in russian because the fat lady on the other side refused to speak or even understand estonian. Working here in service sector.<br />Same way I do not see the need to enforce english - ability to communicate in several languages increases your business.<br />No problem if the public sector or even service sector speaks whatever language, even chinese - but one is a MUST. They have to be able to speak estonian too.Ain Kendrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10603751575824748326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-76752904223701807982009-10-19T20:35:50.848+02:002009-10-19T20:35:50.848+02:00Iceland can manage with a population of 300k, I th...<i>Iceland can manage with a population of 300k, I think we're fine off with our 1,4 million even if it declines to Iceland's level over time. 2008 graders were born on the "babyboom" (~1988), it's only normal that it will drop by 2020.</i><br /><br />It's really hard to gauge what Estonia's population should be. Population transfer dumped hundreds of thousands of people in Estonia. Estonia's population did not exactly grow organically from 1940 to 1991. Can Ida Viru really sustain 170,000 people? Lääne Viru only has 67,000.<br /><br /><i>I totally disagree. I'd rather see Estonia with a smaller population but still a national country.</i><br /> <br />Estonia is a national country. 70 percent of its residents consider themselves to be Estonians by ethnicity. 85 percent consider themselves to be Estonians by citizenship.<br /><br /><i>Personally, I'd say Estonia should adopt Russian and English (in addition to Estonian) as national languages, or drop the national language altogether.</i><br /><br />I'd rather see more municipal control, because any other way would mean amending the constitution, which isn't going to happen. Estonia does not need to change its constitution to add confetti "official languages" to "protect." (Like you can protect the world's largest languages). <br /><br />If there is a language issue, it should be up to the local governments to deal with it. And they do, most of the time.<br /><br />During the elections, it was apparent that Tallinn was (at least) a bilingual city. Every sign seemed like it was in two languages. In Tartu, though, the use of Russian was less apparent. In Haapsalu, I saw no Russian signs (but you do see Swedish signs in the shops). And in Võrumaa, I saw election advertisements in <i>võro kiil</i>!Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-67436558528178267672009-10-19T18:04:13.324+02:002009-10-19T18:04:13.324+02:00I personally bought into this monoethnic format fo...I personally bought into this monoethnic format for estonian society big time. But that was when I was about 14 to 18 years old. Later life experiences have convinced me that Estonians are not such a sweet bunch of folks I'd like to share the public and private space with during my entire life. Since then I have chosen not to actively advocate anything estonian whatever that even is or means. This is because by and large, estonians continue to embarrass me and I prefer to stay luke warm toward "eesti asi". Be the problems with russians as it may, estonians themselves fail to convince me that this is how I want to live and with whom I want to share this life. <br /><br />Agreed, that this is not the most admirable situation I find myself in, but that's a fact. Maybe I am too biased by not living in Estonia for years by now, but I'd argue that on the contrary - I am very balanced in my view and understanding of things and how they are. The only consolation I have is that in my self imposed isolation due to this rahter unpopular worldview, I stand proud as a humanist. Not as an Estonian, but as a human being.<br /><br />With this I just wanted to say that I agree with Justin. That's all. Sorry for getting personal.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-38627192372005532212009-10-19T16:11:16.614+02:002009-10-19T16:11:16.614+02:00I don't think that automatic citizenship would...<i>I don't think that automatic citizenship would change anything in terms of demographics. They live here anyway. If there is any emigration now, it rather happens towards richer countries, not to Russia, and for economic reasons, not for citizenship issues.</i><br /><br />I do see your point, and it's a good one. What I wonder is -- would feeling like the country is welcoming you (no difficult exams to become a citizen, and so on) make you feel more part of it rather than as an outsider?<br /><br />I spoke at a high school recently, where all the students (11th and 12the graders) were native Russian speakers. My impression from speaking to them was that they did not feel connected to Estonia and did not feel like the country cares about them. The were indeed interested in emigrating to countries like the UK, though mostly for economic reasons. It's this type of emigration we need to stem (stop) and it seems to me that citizenship is one thing that may help.<br /><br /><i>I'd rather see Estonia with a smaller population but still a national country.</i><br /><br />Well besides scale issues, who pays for all the pensioners? If the population continues to decline, then there will be 1 working person for every 3 pensioners. (The current workforce is around 600k).<br /><br />Also expect schools to close, towns to disappear, and so on. I suppose this in itself isn't so bad, as long as the people in the disappearing towns (which are likely to be the smaller ones) don't mind.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16666812202305896656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-38396195860293698762009-10-19T15:53:42.829+02:002009-10-19T15:53:42.829+02:00"I'd say Estonia should adopt Russian and...<i>"I'd say Estonia should adopt Russian and English (in addition to Estonian) as national languages, or drop the national language altogether. /.../ The country needs to do whatever possible to discourage emmigration."</i><br /><br />I totally disagree. I'd rather see Estonia with a smaller population but still a national country. Iceland can manage with a population of 300k, I think we're fine off with our 1,4 million even if it declines to Iceland's level over time. 2008 graders were born on the "babyboom" (~1988), it's only normal that it will drop by 2020.matudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07623518363102176576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-25822662231140029582009-10-19T14:56:26.499+02:002009-10-19T14:56:26.499+02:00Justin,
leaving everything else aside, I don't...Justin,<br />leaving everything else aside, I don't think that automatic citizenship would change anything in terms of demographics. They live here anyway. If there is any emigration now, it rather happens towards richer countries, not to Russia, and for economic reasons, not for citizenship issues.notsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17695600258288551765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-43017855444916060932009-10-19T13:14:18.803+02:002009-10-19T13:14:18.803+02:00"The country needs to do whatever possible to..."The country needs to do whatever possible to discourage emmigration"<br />I totally disagree with this statement. Emmigration is not at all solution. On the contrary, emmigration creates new problems.Meelishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06624197502208867055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-72121761729967689182009-10-18T20:47:22.724+02:002009-10-18T20:47:22.724+02:00Give them automatic citizenship, and make it easie...Give them automatic citizenship, and make it easier for current stateless citizens to become citizens.<br /><br />The population of Estonia has been on the decline for years (2009 will be the first year of a slight uptick, and I attribute that to economic conditions -- you can't lay off a woman who is pregnant or with small kids, thus an incentive to get pregnant now rather than later). Eventaully there will be 2x as many people receiving pensions as in the workforce.<br /><br />If there's one thing the country needs, it's more people. Make it as easy as possible to get citizenship.<br /><br />Personally, I'd say Estonia should adopt Russian and English (in addition to Estonian) as national languages, or drop the national language altogether. Many countries manage fine with many national languages (Singapore, Hong Kong SAR, Finland), or with English as the language of government and commerce (India, Philippines).<br /><br />I realize there is concern for preserving the Estonian language and so on, but there is not much thought being given to demographics. Just last week in Postimees, they said the number of 12th graders will drop from 10.8k in 2008 to 6.8k by 2020. The country needs to do whatever possible to discourage emmigration and encourage population growth.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16666812202305896656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-28542938013705467172009-10-18T03:33:38.744+02:002009-10-18T03:33:38.744+02:00Winds of change in Russia ...
http://www.nytimes....Winds of change in Russia ...<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/opinion/17aron.htmlLPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-38321917766158110712009-10-16T22:03:52.084+02:002009-10-16T22:03:52.084+02:00"little things like my grandmother never meet..."little things like my grandmother never meeting my grandfather, hence my mother never being born..."<br /><br />Fair enough. It's like the old time machine question - do you see yourself (as in Back To the Future) or do you remain yourself and reverse-age... Who knows. It's too much of a reach on my part. <br /><br />Good ideas, Sharon...Kristopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01394211030848077681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-37600200642993581222009-10-16T21:58:57.292+02:002009-10-16T21:58:57.292+02:00Sharon, there are already some resources, like htt...Sharon, there are already some resources, like http://www.panglosskool.eu or the Janku Juss cartoons that you can find on Youtube. But I see what you mean.<br /><br />Indeed. Maybe everybody, including Estonian Estonians, would be better off if it were a tad easier for all those passportless people to get citizenship.Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-41723836538793597262009-10-16T13:58:56.268+02:002009-10-16T13:58:56.268+02:00Giustino ütles...
'Drinking with Putin' c...Giustino ütles... <br />'Drinking with Putin' could be a classic comedy sketch, right up there with Cheech and Chong's 'Tripping in Court.'<br /><br />Too bad you don't have Satuday Night Live there...Martasmimihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904404170845733669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-91596739566894364042009-10-16T07:24:30.374+02:002009-10-16T07:24:30.374+02:00The US has citizenship classes.The US has citizenship classes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-69302751160473033922009-10-16T06:49:27.325+02:002009-10-16T06:49:27.325+02:00Sharon, you would have probably been born in the c...<i>Sharon, you would have probably been born in the country and would speak Estonian had Estonia not lost control of its borders during World War II</i><br /><br />Ah, not so much. I probably wouldn't have been born at all. Little things like my grandmother never meeting my grandfather, hence my mother never being born... They tend to get in the way.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12383128449697415608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-44126549976132588172009-10-16T06:43:55.213+02:002009-10-16T06:43:55.213+02:00I know it's a hot button issue, but I can'...I know it's a hot button issue, but I can't help but feel it is better if everyone who intends to live permanently in a country has the option of becoming a citizen of that country more readily available than the option of becoming a citizen of another country.<br /><br />Especially if the "other country" is rather large, right next door and has a tendency to *ahem* "advocate" for it's citizens using large items of military hardware.<br /><br />This is also my home country's policies expressing themselves through me, though - we have a strong desire to encourage permanent residents to become citizens sooner rather than later. <br /><br />There are all sorts of political, social and legal reasons why it makes life easier for the authorities if they're dealing with citizens of their own country. Much easier to throw you in gaol than have you deported... Much easier to justify paying you unemployment benefits if you're "ours"... Much easier to convince pollies that spending money in your neighbourhood might benefit them come the next election if you're entitled to vote...<br /><br />Here's an idea, though: what if, in addition to making citizenship a little bit more available to permanent residents, the government sponsored a "programme" that was available to all citizens to teach the basics of Estonian history and language - and offered tangible rewards for people who completed it (in order to encourage people who need extrinsic motivation)? <br /><br />A programme supported online with downloadable material and teachers available for consultation. <br /><br />A programme that comes with a range of resources, like television programmes, movies, books and comics - all accessible from anywhere in the world. <br /><br />A programme that can supply would-be Estonian citizens and speakers with a way to gauge their reading level and can supply an extensive/narrow reading programme to assist with vocabulary acquisition. <br /><br />A programme that used the best features of interactive and collaborative technology to give learners the opportunity to use and play with the language while learning about the history, literature and culture. <br /><br />A programme with the aim of creating fluent, literate Estonian citizens who know their language, history and cultural works...<br /><br />Actually, I just want them to do this anyway. You know, for me. I know I've asked for this before, and I'll probably ask for it again. Whatever. You have any idea how hard it is to teach yourself Estonian? Especially when you work full time, study part time and the nearest Estonian community is over a thousand kilometers away?Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12383128449697415608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-52378712520019358322009-10-15T20:33:40.337+02:002009-10-15T20:33:40.337+02:00One question I always had about the problem of non...One question I always had about the problem of non-citizens in Estonia is: is it better, or worse, for the Estonian state that it is easier for these people to acquire Russian citizenship? If all (or most) of them became Russian citizens, would this be better, or worse? (I'm actually curious. If it's better for them to be Russian citizens than to have no citizenship, then maybe the government should encourage them to apply for Russian passports).Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-79958166913197677242009-10-15T14:44:15.979+02:002009-10-15T14:44:15.979+02:00Another major producer of sõir is OÜ Merriba, esta...Another major producer of sõir is OÜ Merriba, established in Tallinn. They make quite good suluguni as well.notsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17695600258288551765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-88079574279659163492009-10-15T01:04:10.209+02:002009-10-15T01:04:10.209+02:00Yes, and wisely, Helsingin Sanomat is stressing th...Yes, and wisely, Helsingin Sanomat is stressing that this is not meant as mockery of drunken Finns. :-D<br /><br />http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Tallinna+haluaa+Helsinki-aukion+ja+Kekkosen+patsaan+satamaansa/1135250033695Mysthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111657302405172980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-51002994004421566062009-10-14T23:23:35.521+02:002009-10-14T23:23:35.521+02:00In other news: Tallinn's city council wants to...In other news: Tallinn's city council wants to make the square in front of the harbour's passenger terminal Helsingi square and erect a monument for Kekkonen.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076822279861048442noreply@blogger.com