tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post6945005593245788796..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: the mock outrageGiustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-81277607710589502132010-12-12T04:24:30.134+02:002010-12-12T04:24:30.134+02:00Just to throw something into the mix: http://www.t...Just to throw something into the mix: http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6260.4720.0.0 <br />A bit sensationalist but food for thought.<br />I found this via a search of the said headline so please excuse that it comes from a religious organisation. I don't make a habit of reading this column.Simohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12187940105366820637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-82461797877206413402010-12-12T01:50:26.813+02:002010-12-12T01:50:26.813+02:00Nobody says Russia is behaving 'rationally'...Nobody says Russia is behaving 'rationally', kalev. As I said, it's more like a spoiled adolescent slowly getting used to the idea that he can't play with his old toys anymore.<br /><br />A good question, Justin: why wouldn't the West accept the occupation of Georgia? Probably because the fall of the Soviet Union had been seen as a 'happy ending' to the Cold War, and this occupation would help undo this feeling. I don't know it for a fact -- but I think if the Russians tried to occupy, say, Tajikistan or Kyrgyzstan, there would be a similar reaction. OK, the fact that Georgians are Christians and in appearance quite European-like did help; but something that looked like an attempt at reverting the 'happy end' of the Cold War would probably get some muscles moving in the West. Or so it seems to me.Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-88139790756075317252010-12-11T12:04:34.317+02:002010-12-11T12:04:34.317+02:00Let me get this straight, Russia holds the biggest...Let me get this straight, Russia holds the biggest wargames since the Cold War known as "Zapad-2009", which culminates in a nuclear attack on Poland and and invasion of the Baltic states, and these guys are now "perplexed" that NATO has drawn up plans to to defend Poland and the Baltics? Are these people drinking too much vodka?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02550006777631393598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-11874493209450187362010-12-10T10:56:41.835+02:002010-12-10T10:56:41.835+02:00moevenorts posts are sort of like braindead copy-p...moevenorts posts are sort of like braindead copy-paste texts from regnum.ru His texts lack any self-criticism whatsoever, pure propaganda and lies. A'la Estonian volunteers to Georgia to support the "war effort". Nevermind the fact that Estonia sent humanitarian aid workers to the conflict. At the same time Russia sent "humanitarian aid" with tanks and bombs. And of course he ignores the US embassy cables that clearly lay it out that Russia was responsible for the war.<br /><br />PS! I found a picture of moevenort online.<br />http://eero.info/misc/Net_Troll.jpgUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762009887149412727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-53324060759459967052010-12-10T09:04:02.253+02:002010-12-10T09:04:02.253+02:00So when I know the bacgkround of the 2008 crisis i...<i>So when I know the bacgkround of the 2008 crisis including the Estonian offer to send some volunteery units to support Sakaschwilis war efforts, the German refusal of defence plans and the american description of the "manicas" in Tallinns government are quite accurate.</i> <br /><br />For some reason, the Estonians took it upon themselves to defend Georgian national interests (even though Georgia is as far away from Estonia as Basque Country - when's the last time the Estonian government voiced concerns over political issues there?). There is a part of the Estonian elite that could be called "Georgiaphiles." It is interesting that such levels of support are not found among Georgia's real neigbors: Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia.<br /><br />That being said, the Russians played on Saakashvili's character flaws, constantly provoking him until he finally reacted. And nobody could do anything to restrain Russian provocations because they refused to internaionalize the situation. It's the equivalent of the school bully constantly bumping into you, tripping you in the hallway, waiting for the day when you finally hit back with your fist. And once you lay a hand on him, he has the right to do whatever he wants ... I mean, you started it.<br /><br />As for the 2008 defense of the Georgian government though, there is a good reason for this: if the government in Tbilisi had fallen, and there would have been a total Russian occupation with a Russian-backed government set up by Moscow, it would be a way for Moscow to set up a precedent for occupying other countries the same way.<br /><br />It was in the interests of all countries that have once been under Moscow's thumb to prevent that from happening. I think most Western leaders have admitted the Georgian government's mistakes in that conflict, but believed that the preservation of the current political configuration is necessary until a new, more democratic one is born. <br /><br />Efforts by the Georgian opposition to remove Saakashvili from power have not been successful. So who else is going to run that country? <br /><br />By the way, it wasn't the Estonians who negotiated the ceasefire: that was the much maligned French. It was Sarkozy who told Putin the West would not accept a Russian occupation of Georgia. And he listened to Sarkozy. <br /><br />Estonians can criticize that agreement, but they must know that their foreign ministry certainly couldn't have put a stop to the war in Georgia. <br /><br />But here, one has to ask, why wouldn't the West accept a Russian occupation of Georgia? Is it because Saakashvili, as flawed as he is, has opened his country up to a dialogue with the West? In this case, at least, his presidency can be called a success.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-12433456302661072042010-12-09T17:24:20.764+02:002010-12-09T17:24:20.764+02:00"paranoid manicacs" that´s even how us-d..."paranoid manicacs" that´s even how us-diplomats described the behaviour of politicians in Estonia. No one should forget that Estonia´s government in 2008 with Sakaschwili in Georgia supported a freak how is as undemocratic as Putin himself. Georgia under Sakaschwili is anything else than democratic. So when I know the bacgkround of the 2008 crisis including the Estonian offer to send some volunteery units to support Sakaschwilis war efforts, the German refusal of defence plans and the american description of the "manicas" in Tallinns government are quite accurate. <br /><br />btw: I know Georgia quite good. Have been living for some month shorty after Sakaschwili took power there. I know quite well what I am talking about when I call him an undemocratic freak.moevenorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292577520959729452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-68602294490201411372010-12-09T15:44:37.768+02:002010-12-09T15:44:37.768+02:00Oh, one article what was linked in Eesti Päevaleht...Oh, one article what was linked in Eesti Päevaleht commentaries<br />http://www.1tv.ru/prj/pozner/vypusk/6375<br /><br />If you cannot understand Russian, then Google translator Russian-English is enough for this.Serial_https://www.blogger.com/profile/15318785420664095266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-21901055677275515092010-12-09T15:33:27.794+02:002010-12-09T15:33:27.794+02:00I don't believe that Russia has intentions to ...I don't believe that Russia has intentions to test does article 5 applies or not. Also Nato can't afford to let Russians to know does article 5 applies or not, because this is the basis of Nato treaty. For (utopic) example, Russia attacks Nato country. Nato has to respond now, otherwise all Nato agreements will become void and after that Nato will just stop existing and no one knows or even wants to know, what that can bring.<br /><br />Actually, I still think that Russians knew about it before, because fact about nato plans was mentioned in press already some while ago. It wasn't a surprise to anyone, even to Russia.Serial_https://www.blogger.com/profile/15318785420664095266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-36586688623698224932010-12-09T14:50:39.103+02:002010-12-09T14:50:39.103+02:00It might not be entirely emotional, as the Baltics...It might not be entirely emotional, as the Baltics GDP is 6.7% that of Russia's. As Russia acknowledges that its own GDP growth is based on limited fossil resources and that the Baltics' isn't, they might see the Baltics as a significant potential asset. But I agree that the passing of time is our best friend here.Rein Batuuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04179072422630243080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-72181392137763797522010-12-09T05:03:05.618+02:002010-12-09T05:03:05.618+02:00Nah, it is just somebody's boring job to draw ...Nah, it is just somebody's boring job to draw up all those scenarios. You need to get the next FY budget justified and approved for your ministry/department/commissariat/gestapo what-have you. If I had a that cushy job in Moscow or Brussels or Toompea and all I had to do for a living was to dream up some pull out of your ass war scenarios, I'd do it. Hell yes, I would. It is just a job. Somebody's gotta do it. Nothing personal, just business. If I was Rogozin, I'd say the same BS he is saying. If I needed a BSser for my project, I'd hire him if the price was right. Same with Aaviksoo and the rest of the these characters. It is just a job.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-11861826607484252162010-12-09T04:02:02.552+02:002010-12-09T04:02:02.552+02:00That's just it, really. It's too soon. T...That's just it, really. It's too soon. The Russian Empire was still something to boast about thirty years ago. People still remember being big and strong and powerful. They don't want to think they aren't big and strong and powerful anymore.<br /><br />Plus, you have to remember that most empires get a bit paternal. They view their "member states" like a father views his teenage daughters. <br /><br />On the one hand, they want unconditional respect, if not love. On the other hand, they feel somewhat "responsible" for them. If you spoke to the Russians, they would probably talk about the Baltic states as something <i>they</i> (Russia) must defend against other invading forces. <br /><br />The idea that Estonia might just want Russia to go away and leave them to get on with their lives is probably about as popular as a 16 year old girl telling her possessive/protective father to stop interfering.<br /><br />The fact that Baltic states might see Russia as the enemy? That the rest of the world might be willing to take their side and "protect" <i>them</i> from Russia? Well, I expect Daddy Russia probably <i>would</i> feel instulted at his daughters treating him so ungratefully.<br /><br />The fact that he has a history of locking up his daughters "for their own good" and stopping them from moving freely and making friends is entirely beside the point.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12383128449697415608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-72953702969188589412010-12-09T04:01:32.907+02:002010-12-09T04:01:32.907+02:00Lingüista ütles...
The world also tip-toes aroun...Lingüista ütles... <br /><br />The world also tip-toes around much-less-nuclear North Korea, <br /><br />* mostly because they have an aging Elvis wanabe as their President.Martasmimihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00904404170845733669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-53873577898550581012010-12-09T00:50:12.876+02:002010-12-09T00:50:12.876+02:00... then things should eventually cool off. (forgo...... then things should eventually cool off. (forgot to add that in my last comment... I really have to drink more coffe...)Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-34037162368991207002010-12-09T00:48:58.755+02:002010-12-09T00:48:58.755+02:00Oh, but about the rest of the world... Maybe that ...Oh, but about the rest of the world... Maybe that is to be expected. Russia is, after all, a nuclear power. The world also tip-toes around much-less-nuclear North Korea, why not around Russia?<br /><br />My idea is that if European integration continues -- the Euro coming to Estonia now, maybe to Latvia and Lithuania in 2014 (Dombrovskis is an optimist)Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-16018995630945191592010-12-09T00:45:22.070+02:002010-12-09T00:45:22.070+02:00That Russia still has a Baltic problem is, to me, ...That Russia still has a Baltic problem is, to me, quite obvious, Justin. As has already often been said, it's the same problem that other ex-colonial metropoles have had with their ex-colonial empire. France with the Fourth Republic and then De Gaulle during the war of Algeria was full of similar rhetoric -- "L'Algérie est française", "Ici c'est la France", "Je vous ai compris", "L'Algérie sera toujours française", replaced by "special interests" ("La Francophonie", "Notre Histoire Commune", etc.) and a feeling of anger that their "pupils" would prefer independence instead of "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité" inside the French Republic.<br /><br />Yes, Russia is behaving like a spoiled adolescent. So did France. It's hard to lose your empire. It breaks your heart and makes you more than a little emotional and, well, irrational.<br /><br />Give it some time. France recovered. Russia will, too. When the next bout of problems (Siberia, the North Caucausus, Tatarstan, etc.) becomes more urgent, people will slowly forget about that. Even the Russian minorities won't matter that much. After all, Russia doesn't complain about the 'de-russification' of Russian minorities in Tajikistan or Uzbekistan now does it?Lingüistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327147408198046253noreply@blogger.com