tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post3254153238287745440..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: Nord Stream: The Dumbest Idea EverGiustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-31401106164109568002007-08-30T05:32:00.000+03:002007-08-30T05:32:00.000+03:00Giustino:lolz! They young people these days! Margu...Giustino:<BR/><BR/>lolz! They young people these days! <BR/><BR/>Margus:<BR/><BR/>Russkie wenches are treacherous. This guy sure had his Russophilia cured:<BR/><BR/>http://www.sakhalinexpats.com/viewtopic.php?t=82So?https://www.blogger.com/profile/08685766312994525903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-82560931172314345432007-08-30T02:06:00.000+03:002007-08-30T02:06:00.000+03:00thomas, one more point.we have here a lot of cable...thomas, one more point.<BR/>we have here a lot of cables, electricity cables and internet cables under the sea, connections with finland and sweden.<BR/>also our current communication obviously moves through these to the blogger's server.<BR/><BR/>over every few years again and again some stupid shipper cuts down the cable. is this russian submarine preventing free movement of information or accidental fisherman or holiday yacht - you never know.<BR/><BR/>well, internet has good characters that it finds its way through other wires. and the broken cable will just be replaced - expensive and uncomfortable, but still result of shallow waters.<BR/>now imagine, that instead of bytes in the pipe is gas. and it is not so harmless than bytes to underwater sealife.<BR/>it takes a lot of time (and gas) before russia stops pumping.<BR/>recent news are that under water in russia the gas pipe is leaking into Lena river (was it?) and so far nothing is undertaken except shippers recommended to chose other side of riverbed.<BR/><BR/>you know, how ww2 begun in Poland? or what preceded attack to finland? not much needed. so these military outposts are just creating opportunities for not-so-nice but possible future.<BR/>from germany is nice to look and even smile at us.<BR/>but bear in mind parallel to molotov-ribbentrop treaty and somewhere earlier given recommendation - for germany and russia easiest way prevent paying for transit fees will be the joining the borders again like they did in '39. too many similarities in developments. however, maybe with mirrored images.Ain Kendrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10603751575824748326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-48820657110086744572007-08-30T00:09:00.000+03:002007-08-30T00:09:00.000+03:00It would be great if Estonia could rely on cheap R...<I>It would be great if Estonia could rely on cheap Russian energy resources but considering that Russia is not a liberal democracy this remains wishful thinking.</I><BR/><BR/>Can't the EU just develop regional energy grids rather than this mundane situation we find ourselves in now?<BR/><BR/>I mean the Swedes/Norwegians/Finns own basically everything else in Estonia. Shouldn't energy into the Estonian market be the same as energy into the Swedish market? If you cut off the gas, and the lights go out at Falck Eesti, doesn't that make the boys at Falck Danmark just as mad?<BR/><BR/>As for dumb Russians, I think it's more of a youth phenomenon. Why are young people today so dumb? I mean we've always been dumb, but I really don't recall them being <I>so</I> dumb as in 'April riots' dumb.<BR/><BR/>What gives?Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-38418465132447473822007-08-29T14:23:00.000+03:002007-08-29T14:23:00.000+03:00Dear thomas,who are the ones bringing up the past ...Dear thomas,<BR/><BR/>who are the ones bringing up the past all the time? Some people in Estonia live in the European Union, some live in the Soviet Union. <BR/><BR/>Why don't you study the history of the Russian Empire and then compare it to recent developments? I'm sure you'll find fine examples of people who 'can't let it go'. And as a practical exercise you can go to Narva and speak Estonian to some street punks (hint: wear testicle protection).<BR/><BR/>All the Russians I know are decent people. Makes sense, whyever should I meet common criminals? I wouldn't mind dating a Russian girl, finding a date is difficult as it is. And the fact that not all Russians can experience the miracle of liberal democracy is horrible injustice, even for the Nashi's.margushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14512974087161768695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-43499658906788173942007-08-29T14:14:00.000+03:002007-08-29T14:14:00.000+03:00Thomas:lulz. prove they are not.Thomas:<BR/><BR/>lulz. prove they are not.So?https://www.blogger.com/profile/08685766312994525903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-5876888262025108292007-08-29T12:43:00.000+03:002007-08-29T12:43:00.000+03:00guys...make yourself free of all of those cliche's...guys...make yourself free of all of those cliche's...russians are evil, dumb, incompetent etc...get over it or do you want always to be stuck /live in the past...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00549897262620423478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-78845346005810897962007-08-29T03:36:00.000+03:002007-08-29T03:36:00.000+03:00margus,Totally true. Russkies are evil and incompe...margus,<BR/><BR/>Totally true. Russkies are evil <I>and</I> incompetent. They'll spend a dollar to see you lose a penny. Their one and only pleasure is to make life difficult for others.So?https://www.blogger.com/profile/08685766312994525903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-58129964453828155562007-08-29T02:16:00.000+03:002007-08-29T02:16:00.000+03:00but I understand that armed russian guards on esto...<I>but I understand that armed russian guards on estonian soil or water would be quite difficult for estonians</I><BR/><BR/>I'm stupefied. How would YOU feel about Kremlin-controlled private militia in Estonian waters as you currently live in Estonia? What would that security force protect against anyway? Terrorist submarines? Or is it possible that the amassing of military might on the Baltic is supposed to create an atmosphere of fear and unease and to perpetrate the occasional 'incident'?<BR/><BR/>Remember Cold war era US where you had to 'duck and cover' to survive a nuclear attack? This is similar to 'o shit, relations are bad with Russia, it must be something I did!' You can't control Kremlin's opinion of Estonia because it's not dependent on our actions but rather the internal needs of Russian politics.<BR/><BR/>Don't put much hope on the 'business rationale' of Russia. When they cut oil transit to Estonia, the impact on our economy was marginal and the workers that were laid off were mostly Russians. The Estonian Russians they supposedly care about. They severed their exporting capabilities without having the sufficient ports themselves. That's like cutting your hand off before choking someone with it.<BR/><BR/>It would be great if Estonia could rely on cheap Russian energy resources but considering that Russia is not a liberal democracy this remains wishful thinking.margushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14512974087161768695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-25049827741576449792007-08-28T23:22:00.000+03:002007-08-28T23:22:00.000+03:00nipi, I see your point..although your remarks 1-3 ...nipi, I see your point..although your remarks 1-3 are rather of technical nature and as german engineer myself, I would say they would not be so problematic to solve...but I understand that armed russian guards on estonian soil or water would be quite difficult for estonians...got that...well, after all this comments here...I see that estonia most likely won't agree on the pipeline route...sad, a little bit because since I live here and care about estonia, it was just a glance of a chance to improve the situation with russia...but life is going on and there will come other possibilitiesUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00549897262620423478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-10351760955619104012007-08-28T23:04:00.000+03:002007-08-28T23:04:00.000+03:00thomas, there are several questionable points in y...thomas, there are several questionable points in your idea.<BR/>1) the pipe would be drawn through areas where during ww2 a lot of war-related munitions (incl chemical) have been stored.<BR/>2) baltic sea is rather shallow, also we have a lot of ship-traffic in narrow zone which happens to be the same where pipe will be stored. do you imagine picture when ship is using anchor?<BR/>3) the pipeline will be crossed with at least 13 different lines - pipes or cables. Including electricity. We are not at all sure it is a safe solution.<BR/>4) and maybe the most dangerous point - Gazprom has its armed forces and works in close cooperation with russian army. they are willing to build a platform to secure the pipeline. And this platform will be located besides to Saaremaa. Russians have stated, that platform and whole pipeline will be guarded with russian armed forces. Do you imagine how happy we'll be knowing that russian navy is all the time legally standing and waiting at our gates?<BR/>5) are you sure that russia keeps their promises? we are not. The honour-chain of Estonian President before ww2 is still in russia, several times promised to return.<BR/><BR/>May accept international treaties - but just russian armed forces (navy, even legally as private army) besides - that seems too much.Ain Kendrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10603751575824748326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-66800523361103156032007-08-28T21:20:00.000+03:002007-08-28T21:20:00.000+03:00>And so you did find the main reason why dealing w...< < finally, nationalism was never a good adviser, when it comes to economic decision > ><BR/><BR/>And so you did find the main reason why dealing with Russia is potentially dangerous. Russia uses its economic ties as a weapon. Has used before - and is using at the moment you just look at Georgia, or Estonia and transit, Poland and meat etc. Or so called "energy wars".Minahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04077816901574176875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-39068086414747780922007-08-28T16:43:00.000+03:002007-08-28T16:43:00.000+03:00"And speaking of long term, the less we have to de..."And speaking of long term, the less we have to deal with Kremlin the better off we are. The flat tax and other economic reforms were all in a sense means to escape Russia's hindering influence."...and thats exactly what i dont get here...russia is estonia's biggest neighbor, could be biggest source of ressources....but estonians tend to refuse everything when it comes to russia...long term, i dont understand your question Martin..ENERGY!!!...Estonia wants to grow on, wants to develop and for that it needs ENERGY...unfortunately, Estonia cannot generate sufficient Energy for itself...and here is the chance: a gas pipeline in front of your door!!!...why dont allow the russians to put it through estonian waters and in return secure some benefit in form of energy, money or maybe a border treaty or whatsover...whatelse do you plan to do with the baltic sea, do you have any idea of use for it, a diving center, or what???...my point is just that the ball is back in the estonian field...estonia can now determine for what the russians can put the pipeline into estonia's waters...there are plenty of things/benefits which could come out at the end of such negotiations...finally, nationalism was never a good adviser, when it comes to economic decisionUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00549897262620423478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-70358289236301123862007-08-28T15:04:00.000+03:002007-08-28T15:04:00.000+03:00thomas,did you have a specific point to make in yo...thomas,<BR/><BR/>did you have a specific point to make in your last comment? <BR/><BR/>As I see it, for Estonia, there is nothing to gain from Nord Stream. And speaking of long term, the less we have to deal with Kremlin the better off we are. The flat tax and other economic reforms were all in a sense means to escape Russia's hindering influence.margushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14512974087161768695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-43504831637719808372007-08-28T12:26:00.000+03:002007-08-28T12:26:00.000+03:00right, the terminology "EU" is misleading, the who...right, the terminology "EU" is misleading, the whole pipeline thing is just business...as written in the article, its about ensuring energy supply...the russians want to left out poland/below russ/ukraine...just to ensure gas-transport to western europe and still be able to handle/treat the countries mentioned above in a different way...but still, i think thats an unique opportunity for estonia to ensure its energy supply/ solve the energy question as well as to improve the relations to russia...true, its difficult for estonia to deal with russia with all that s*** coming out there towards estonia...but hey, maybe estonian politician have once more the longterm view as they had it with flat-tax and many other things...I know it might take a lot of effort, calmness and patience to deal with the big bear but still, its worth trying it...isn't it?...I mean, what else can be done...alyway on the verge of ugly PR leading to more violence...well, and underwater pipeline is just safer, less problems to expect once its done...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00549897262620423478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-55353670078446949482007-08-27T20:36:00.000+03:002007-08-27T20:36:00.000+03:00As well Lithuania and Poland in EU, so it could be...As well Lithuania and Poland in EU, so it could be enough to go through them?Ain Kendrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10603751575824748326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-12835331903226758012007-08-27T19:48:00.000+03:002007-08-27T19:48:00.000+03:00Nord Stream is a Russo-German gas pipeline project...<I>Nord Stream is a Russo-German gas pipeline project designed to link Russia and the European Union via the Baltic Sea.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link, Thomas. Did you catch the above sentence. See, I thought that Finland and Estonia were in the EU, so one might not need an underwater pipeline to link the "EU" (AKA Germany) and Russia.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-75927643008770809992007-08-27T18:37:00.000+03:002007-08-27T18:37:00.000+03:00Who allowed someone's retarded Irish younger broth...Who allowed someone's retarded Irish younger brother to go online unsupervized?Jaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01162583853792906338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-11011256700128114322007-08-27T17:57:00.000+03:002007-08-27T17:57:00.000+03:00I find this blog most informative of life currentl...I find this blog most informative of life currently in Russia...Some of you may be interested in my blog from Ireland which contains an article linling to a lot of Soviet Music..<BR/><BR/>I would like to invite your readers in Russia and elsewhere to view my blog ‘An Unrepentant Communist<BR/><BR/>http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/<BR/><BR/>Greetings to you all from County ’ Kerry in Ireland!Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11842473772696324319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-47275214901367846502007-08-27T16:07:00.000+03:002007-08-27T16:07:00.000+03:00http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/18630/her...http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/18630/<BR/>here he comes, the russian bear...another chance to improve the situation between both countries???Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00549897262620423478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-40273482191304071262007-08-26T10:32:00.000+03:002007-08-26T10:32:00.000+03:00Well, maybe it is not correct to call it transit f...Well, maybe it is not correct to call it transit fee. Maybe it is better to call it land tax for rather dangerous land use type. As Polish government has to face the troubles when pipe blows or just leaks? There are also other restrictions besides to the gas pipe as the pipe is not deep underground facility. All this has to be compensated to landowners - but land is private. Under sea there seem to be no compensation, also while you face the consequences, only physical repair of pipe is the cost category - you can't compensate in whichever mode the environmental damage. Damage during construction and on the possible accidents is practically impossible to evaluate (the cost of...)Ain Kendrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10603751575824748326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-26131219493786685562007-08-26T10:21:00.000+03:002007-08-26T10:21:00.000+03:00The main incentive to build the pipe, as they have...<I>The main incentive to build the pipe, as they have put it themselves, is to save on transit fees they give to countries like Poland, a long term project.</I><BR/><BR/>I have heard it billed as a pipeline to 'Western Europe" -- hinting that the Netherlands or Luxembourg or France could suck off the end of Russia's pipe.<BR/><BR/>What would be the transit fee conditions there? Would those countries pay Germany fees? <BR/><BR/>Finally, why are there even individual transit fees for things like gas in the EU. Germany (pop. 83 mill) is a large market, but Poland (pop. 39 mill.) isn't exactly small.<BR/><BR/>In the context of the EU, the idea that one could pipe in gas to Szczecin in Poland and then have to pay a fee to send it on to Stralsund in Germany is a bit ridiculous.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-78420230059500799172007-08-25T22:59:00.000+03:002007-08-25T22:59:00.000+03:00Estonia's power grid could do without Russia in a ...Estonia's power grid could do without Russia in a normal situation. At least I've heard that. But in a situation where the demand is exceptionally big for some reason, we could get into trouble with holding the frequency or smth.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076822279861048442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-73927642201540051502007-08-25T22:35:00.000+03:002007-08-25T22:35:00.000+03:00The main incentive to build the pipe, as they have...The main incentive to build the pipe, as they have put it themselves, is to save on transit fees they give to countries like Poland, a long term project.<BR/><BR/>There is no point building a branch to Estonia as we have sufficient lines from the east already.<BR/><BR/>Asking for a valve or stripes or Setumaa is ludicrous. They consider getting the Estonian route a long-shot anyway. A valve to 'fuck' with Russia? 100% Estonia's gas supply comes from Russia. And despite the Estlink to Finland, Estonian power grid is isolated from Europe. It is not robust enough to be stable by itself and has to be connected to Russia's northwest grid. Any 'fucking' with Russia won't be very satisfying.margushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14512974087161768695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-82370644083702877932007-08-25T21:02:00.000+03:002007-08-25T21:02:00.000+03:00I think it's just a logistically dumb idea. It's e...I think it's just a logistically dumb idea. It's easier/cheaper to put another one through Poland. And, by the way, what exactly does Gerhard Schroeder know about the gas business?Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-21779963822372316962007-08-25T15:44:00.000+03:002007-08-25T15:44:00.000+03:00ah yes, the good old "when the Russians and German...ah yes, the good old "when the Russians and Germans are on friendly terms, everything will blow up" thing. But Russia has no other friends and Germany really needs the gas... so who cares about everyone else, right?<BR/><BR/>as far as I've heard, the best idea for World Energy Production (tm) is to cover Sahara with solar panels and go from there. and I believe that everyone with half a brain should start keeping an eye out on cheap mules or horses seeing as oil WILL run out within the next 50 years or so. And taking that into consideration, is the whole pipeline thing really all that useful, when the energy to build it could be used to find alternative energy sources instead?Dorishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12942338677951019959noreply@blogger.com