tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post1478911661578752207..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: Tomorrow it all endsGiustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger115125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-38275821910211988582007-05-11T17:32:00.000+03:002007-05-11T17:32:00.000+03:00As space_maze pointed out above, admin is missing ...As space_maze pointed out above, admin is missing the point.<BR/><BR/>A state is under no obligation to present a History that undermines its very existence.<BR/><BR/>I'm not arguing that an Estonian version of the past be shoved down Russian Estonians' throats. That would be counterproductive. I'm simply arguing that the idea that state-supported History in Estonia be taught from an Estonian perspective is reasonable, given that this is what other states are doing.<BR/><BR/>Alternate interpretations of the past can and should be freely available, but no one should expect the state to deliver them. If Russian Estonians want a different story, nothing prevents them from creating and consuming it privately. Surely there's a Russian Estonian version of Howard Zinn who would not mind selling 300,000 copies of "A People's History of Estonia." ;)<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, a recent study has shown that Americans and Europeans are more or less equally historically ignorant. Not very encouraging, that...Bennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14818056148186099182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-17419579112482232052007-05-11T12:30:00.000+03:002007-05-11T12:30:00.000+03:00That's all just wonderful, but COMPLETELY beside t...That's all just wonderful, but COMPLETELY beside the point.space_mazehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04761076198531074140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-10099208734190838332007-05-11T08:35:00.000+03:002007-05-11T08:35:00.000+03:00"The U.S., much like Estonia, requires its citizen..."The U.S., much like Estonia, requires its citizens to know its own version of its History (not some hostile, alternate one)"<BR/><BR/>Give us a break!!<BR/><BR/>Americans are far too ignorant to even understand what the word history means, never mind geography.<BR/><BR/>Since when did America have "history", (apart from ?genocide of the native american peoples,the emergence of the Mafia, assassinating 2 of its own presidents in 20 years, white supremacy, black slavery...and the list goes on).<BR/><BR/>Talk about "it's own version of history", - makes Russia look positively virtuous!!!!!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273478513492336119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-54343265322640336592007-05-11T01:50:00.000+03:002007-05-11T01:50:00.000+03:00One way of deciding if what Estonia is doing is "r...One way of deciding if what Estonia is doing is "reasonable" or "discriminatory," is to compare Estonian citizenship procedures with those of other countries, such as the U.S.<BR/><BR/>A newspaper article on immigrant reactions to changes in the citizenship process:<BR/>http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_5858574?nclick_check=1<BR/><BR/>A website explaining the citizenship process:<BR/>http://www.uscitizenship.info/?ad=adword&keyword=citizenship6<BR/><BR/>The U.S., much like Estonia, requires its citizens to know its own version of its History (not some hostile, alternate one) and be able to speak, read and write a little bit of English. Keep in mind, too, that the U.S. is a nation whose identity is built around an immigrant mythology. Some of the immigrants in the newspaper article have been in the U.S. for twenty years, but they will not become citizens simply by being here. What Estonia is doing appears quite reasonable when compared with what the U.S. is doing, even more so when Estonia's history is taken into consideration. Whether it is what is best is another matter...Bennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14818056148186099182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-72651342490977387272007-05-11T00:07:00.000+03:002007-05-11T00:07:00.000+03:00"Estonia's "discrimination problem" would largely ..."Estonia's "discrimination problem" would largely disappear if some way could be found to fix Ida-Virumaa, economically"<BR/><BR/>Well funny as it may seem, the fix is coming. But put it this way....are you suprised it's coming from Russia.<BR/><BR/>Estonia seems blithely ignorant and unconcerned that the success of Ida Virumaa hangs on the projects such as Narva Bridge (in the news again today), and Sillamae port.<BR/><BR/>With their stupid and unneccessary behaviour in Tallinn, they have just torpedoed these projects, and it's far from obvious long term if the freeport scheme here will function properly without the goodwill from RZD, and a few other Russian investors.....<BR/><BR/>Tallinn is frankly not interested in Ida Virumaa...except of course unless it means they can't get Schengen entry without securing the transparent fluvial border...<BR/><BR/>I'm disgusted, and I'm just a stupid foreigner.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273478513492336119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-4262894452338167892007-05-10T23:44:00.000+03:002007-05-10T23:44:00.000+03:00i guess it takes time. these teachers won't be re...i guess it takes time. these teachers won't be replaced by teachers trained in soviet times. with luck, in the future some of them might even speak estonian.klxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02756387772020517484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-28740100128340839722007-05-10T16:01:00.000+03:002007-05-10T16:01:00.000+03:00And I wouldn't like to even imagine the reaction f...And I wouldn't like to even imagine the reaction from Russia if Estonia would start to relieve Soviet-minded teachers from their posts. It would be a full-scale hysteria with threats of military action and accusations of labelling people and taking them to the gas chambers etc (judging on how painful it was for Russia when we moved a tiny statue). So it's not so simple to enforce something like that.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076822279861048442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-78239334028604450472007-05-10T13:19:00.000+03:002007-05-10T13:19:00.000+03:00why are they allowing these schools to use governm...<I>why are they allowing these schools to use government funds to teach bullcrap history to their students.</I><BR/><BR/>As far as I know, the problem is not with the history books but with teachers, because history is not only what is written in books, it's also what teachers tell the students. There are not many young people who want to go to russian schools to teach history and many of the older teacher have got their education during the Soviet times. Some of them, especially those who do not speak proper estonian, tell students their version of history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-43150024121699629112007-05-10T13:04:00.000+03:002007-05-10T13:04:00.000+03:00Hand in hand with high unemployment comes civil di...<I>Hand in hand with high unemployment comes civil disorder,alcoholism, high drug use but those people are the same ones called "CHAVS" living in slums in Liverpool or any EU big city.</I><BR/><BR/>I think this is right actually - Estonia's "discrimination problem" would largely disappear if some way could be found to fix Ida-Virumaa, economically.<BR/><BR/>However, what'll you do? You have too many people, and too little work to do. It'll take some time.space_mazehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04761076198531074140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-20831610441443399272007-05-10T10:59:00.000+03:002007-05-10T10:59:00.000+03:00I honestly think the majority of the minority Russ...<I>I honestly think the majority of the minority Russians in Estonia are happy to be here, and really don't think or behave in a uncivil way.</I><BR/><BR/>i think you are right - and these are the people that need to lead their fellow estonian russians in the right direction.klxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02756387772020517484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-12489009242459150332007-05-10T10:50:00.000+03:002007-05-10T10:50:00.000+03:00"why are they allowing these schools to use govern..."why are they allowing these schools to use government funds to teach bullcrap history to their students."<BR/><BR/>I will have to ask some friends, as our history lessons in the UK were a model of integrity.<BR/><BR/>I honestly think the majority of the minority Russians in Estonia are happy to be here, and really don't think or behave in a uncivil way.<BR/>They just are fed up in my opinion with being tarred with the same brush of the hated soviets, but watch modern russian TV because the content is so much better quantity/quality.<BR/><BR/>Hand in hand with high unemployment comes civil disorder,alcoholism, high drug use but those people are the same ones called "CHAVS" living in slums in Liverpool or any EU big city.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273478513492336119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-47043916637806256912007-05-10T10:45:00.000+03:002007-05-10T10:45:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273478513492336119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-23276540918189281752007-05-10T04:36:00.000+03:002007-05-10T04:36:00.000+03:00"I'm wondering who actually supports the russian l...<B>"I'm wondering who actually supports the russian language system inside Estonia?"<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>err....perhaps you should pop down to Ida Virumaa and ask a few russian parents??<BR/>They're pretty keen their kids should learn through the medium of Russian, and it's pretty useful to be able to keep up contacts with guess what.....their relations on the other side of the border!!!</I></B><BR/><BR/>you have misunderstood what i said.<BR/><BR/>i have no doubt at all the russian minority LIKE having russian language schools (although it seems particularly self indulgent, im my opinion).<BR/><BR/>my question was who at an official level in the department of education regulates, finances and maintains, and administers the russian language system in estonia - and if it IS the government of estonia, why are they allowing these schools to use government funds to teach bullcrap history to their students.<BR/><BR/>is there some kind of regionalism in educational organization, funding and administration? is there no standardization in what is to be taught? i honestly have no idea, as i didn't go to school in estonia - hence my question.klxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02756387772020517484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-30473557523641721412007-05-10T00:22:00.000+03:002007-05-10T00:22:00.000+03:00admin, I'm sorry to say, but I really can't see yo...admin, I'm sorry to say, but I really can't see your point here. I do believe your motives are right, but all in all, it just doesn't make sense.<BR/><BR/><I>We are all Europeans now and no offical languages at all, - just what enables us to get on..</I><BR/><BR/>But *every* EU country has official languages. Luxembourg and Belgium has the most, with three, I believe. Ireland and Finland have two. Finland, Cyprus, Ireland and Malta have two. All 21 others have only one national language on a national basis. In many cases, this excludes native languages - like in the UK (where Welsh is only regionally official, or France, where Breton has no official recognition whatsoever.<BR/><BR/>The official languages of the EU are the 23 languages which are official languages on a national basis in at least one member state.<BR/><BR/>This has nothing to do with pragmatism. There is nothing pragmatic about having a little note in Estonian at the entrance of EU institutions in Portugal. It's just the structure of the EU.<BR/><BR/>So this ..<BR/><BR/><I>Estonia can't qualify for inclusion in Schengen, and I'm happy about that so long as they can't comply (and other eastern Eu states) with ALL the things that implies.</I><BR/><BR/>.. makes no sense. Estonia does comply with the "European standard" here.<BR/><BR/>You have every right to not like the European standard. I hope human society will evolve beyond needing these kinds of structures, sooner or later.<BR/><BR/>BUT.<BR/><BR/>These are European structures. There is only one reason to pick on Estonia in particular here: it's small, and thus easy to bash.<BR/><BR/>The unwillingness of some Russians to accept that their empire is gone is not a reason.space_mazehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04761076198531074140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-69815410466315208112007-05-09T22:51:00.000+03:002007-05-09T22:51:00.000+03:00Admin: You see Estonian govt. as a "weird form." E...<B>Admin:</B> You see Estonian govt. as a "weird form." Elaborate please.Wait, wut?https://www.blogger.com/profile/02838722936881565326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-78295900983724764862007-05-09T22:29:00.000+03:002007-05-09T22:29:00.000+03:00here's about Schengen and Estonia.http://www.easye...here's about Schengen and Estonia.http://www.easyexpat.com/forums/sutra_34281.htm<BR/><BR/>"Tallinn hopes to join the Schengen zone in early 2009, officials said"<BR/><BR/>So it's not due until I imagine Russia and Estonia have had time to make up.<BR/><BR/>"Countries being admitted to the Schengen bloc have to demonstrate that their non-Schengen frontiers are secure."<BR/>ALSO<BR/><BR/>"The treaty does not cover residency or work permits for non-EU nationals"<BR/><BR/>.....So it means Russians will still have to get a Schengen visa after 2009, which is a damn sight easier than a visa to visit Tallinn from the crummy consulate in Moscow it may be said!!<BR/>So that's some progress before 2010!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273478513492336119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-7219775620944142732007-05-09T17:57:00.000+03:002007-05-09T17:57:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.plasma-jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485039580759398780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-46957833176297494562007-05-09T17:31:00.000+03:002007-05-09T17:31:00.000+03:00:-)This place IS like a pub. There's a different ...:-)<BR/><BR/>This place IS like a pub. There's a different converstion going on at every table. You got your drunks and tramps and your inspired intellectuals and your barflies. <BR/><BR/>Today I just lit a cigarette and observe. Maybe stay sober.LPRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397977705898254598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-3033178911045972842007-05-09T16:45:00.000+03:002007-05-09T16:45:00.000+03:00Yeah, YLE certainly was there by the 70's ("Näin N...Yeah, YLE certainly was there by the 70's ("Näin Naapurissa" etc.), and much of the "intelligentsija" also but Archipelago Gulag was published in Finland, and I myself remember standing in a chilly schoolyard in 1979 in Southern Ostrobothnia commemorating the beginning of the Winter War by singing "Oath to the Flag" with all the school attending... So, elite politics can be quite a separate thing from the grass roots level.stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-38884639020550972832007-05-09T14:15:00.000+03:002007-05-09T14:15:00.000+03:00Stockholm Slender:I have much admiration for what ...<B>Stockholm Slender:</B><BR/><BR/>I have much admiration for what Finland accomplished during its war with the Soviet Union.<BR/><BR/>I can't really condemn 'Finlandization' or any of its iterations, because the fact is that Finland survived as a nation-state throughout the Cold War, despite the costs. i do question the intelligence of people that bought the "USSR is really okay" line, which I have seen in Finnish publications from that period.Wait, wut?https://www.blogger.com/profile/02838722936881565326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-9027947393806439292007-05-09T14:06:00.000+03:002007-05-09T14:06:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Wait, wut?https://www.blogger.com/profile/02838722936881565326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-88784272507704226682007-05-09T14:05:00.000+03:002007-05-09T14:05:00.000+03:00Autor on selle kommentaari eemaldanud.Wait, wut?https://www.blogger.com/profile/02838722936881565326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-81346024601799006812007-05-09T14:02:00.000+03:002007-05-09T14:02:00.000+03:00Well, Scott, Finlandization has to be seen against...Well, Scott, Finlandization has to be seen against the background of Finland fully, unconditionally abandoned to Stalin in Yalta. We had to find our own settlemet with the Soviet Union unassisted by the West. The result was morally quite unpleasant (you'll find Paasikivi moaning in his diaries how we have to call black white in order to survive), but the result was a wealthy liberal democratic Finland with its economy fully integrated with West in 1989. And to think that Hertta Kuusinen proclaimed in 1948 that "The Czcechkoslovakian road will be our road". So, even if there was a price to pay, a steep price, it was I believe worth paying. (This is not to deny that especially the younger generations during late Kekkonen era did get dangerously starry eyed about our "dear friends" in the East. The older generations remembered very well, whatever they said publically.)stockholm slenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909107517362691387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-43406014585901064432007-05-09T13:28:00.000+03:002007-05-09T13:28:00.000+03:00If you look carefully you will find all EU docs ca...If you look carefully you will find all EU docs can be written in the languages of any member states...eg to the EU commission and you will get an answer...<BR/><BR/>And Russian ain't one of them. Period. <BR/><BR/>--------<BR/><BR/>It was General de Gaulle had the vision of a European trading block from the Atlantic to the Urals?<BR/>It's actually in construction before your eyes,- except Russia (or those that now control it) decided Energy would be re-nationalised, with the final dismemberment of Yukos last week, and then play the nationalist reunifying card.<BR/>(great if you want to buy in a fruit market in Moscow now!!!)<BR/><BR/>Probably most russians feel more SECURE in Estonia, not neccesarily richer, because of the inherent instability of both since 1990.<BR/><BR/>Given the choice, they no doubt would prefer the wierd form of Estonian democracy to the even weirder form of state capitalism and cronyism of Russia?<BR/><BR/>A case of the least bad system?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07273478513492336119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-9101074175857315732007-05-09T13:12:00.000+03:002007-05-09T13:12:00.000+03:00To take again our example from Wales, there are 2 ...<I>To take again our example from Wales, there are 2 languages in which you are permitted to do all official paperwork....Welsh and English. That has nothing to do with an official language, - "permit" is the correct word.</I><BR/><BR/>Wales isn't a state. It's a nation within a state. Sort of like the Karelian republic in Russia.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, all the forms I have seen at the migration and citizenship office have been in Estonian, English, and Russian.<BR/><BR/>And when I got my client card at Kaubamaja, there were forms available in Estonian and Russian.<BR/><BR/>At Ehitusmaja today most of the products not only had descriptions written in Estonian, but also in Russian, and, depending on origin, Latvian and Lithuanian or Finnish and Swedish.<BR/><BR/>I've been all over this country, from Kärdla to Pärnu to Viljandi to Rakvere. And I mostly hear Estonian being spoken. <BR/><BR/>So I would rather see the minority language question as a regional one, rather than a national one. This issue exists in two places -- Tallinn and in Ida Virumaa county.<BR/><BR/>I would prefer to see local authorities there make their own laws on what languages are officially permitted, rather than the state make sure that all signage in Hiiumaa, where Estonians are 98 percent of the population, is also in Russian. That would not only be a mistake, but it would be ridiculously idiotic and a waste of money.<BR/><BR/>If Noarootsi can be officially bilingual -- Swedish and Estonian, I don't see why Narva can't also be officially bilingual. <BR/><BR/>So again, I see it as a regional issue, rather than a state issue.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.com