tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post116413011703470740..comments2023-11-05T09:55:13.077+02:00Comments on Itching for Eestimaa: Nordic Council Contemplates "Re-branding" EstoniaGiustinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-84062437788369116492009-01-30T11:26:00.000+02:002009-01-30T11:26:00.000+02:00I am an Australian of Estonian heritage. I have bl...I am an Australian of Estonian heritage. I have blonde hair, blue eyes and people ask me if I'm Swedish or Danish. That is all I have to say. Estonia is not anything like Lithuania or Latvia, it's Estonian.<BR/>And... If I had to descibe Estonia, I would say Nordic. Ps, those "skinheads" were probaby remnants of a Soviet migration program in the mid 1940'sUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05330779736890245754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-39938133589468085582008-06-12T09:32:00.000+03:002008-06-12T09:32:00.000+03:00As a US citizen of Celtic/ Cherokee extraction, I ...As a US citizen of Celtic/ Cherokee extraction, I have no ax to grind here, but the whole idea of "branding" is distasteful. On the other hand, an Estonian enjoying cold sult after spending time in his saun has a lot in common with a Norwegian hankering for sulta after being in his sauna. Nordic, nicht wahr? As for Finland being Nordic to the exclusion of Baltic, I'd say that having Karelia amputated and swallowed was a high price to pay for the Nordic label. Agree?<BR/><BR/>I suspect much of the impetus for the branding discussion lies not in disagreements between the participants but in the unspoken consensus that -- even though the US isn't the total market that brands are sold to -- the typical US citizen is almost completely ignorant of geography. For this portion of the market, Nordic starts with the same three letters as Norway and at least provides an unconscious clue as to the latitude. Otherwise, "Baltic" risks confusion with the Balkans. And I'm not joking about the first three letters: I once heard some Estonian folkdancers use the word Baltic in answering the inevitable "Where is Estonia?" question. The response: "Aren't you all too blond to be from down there?"<BR/><BR/>This might sound more like east Texas than Estonia, but if I were Estonian I think my position would be "We don't need no stinkin' brands.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942986690758626364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-17143814495790385642007-09-06T22:15:00.000+03:002007-09-06T22:15:00.000+03:00I would love to have the world see Estonia as a no...I would love to have the world see Estonia as a nordic country. It's the closest identity for us. In the words of our beloved president, Estonia has little in common with the Baltics cept for half a century of communism and Soviet occupation. <BR/><BR/>I am insulted when referred to as an Eastern-European. Estonia is in Northern Europe, at least according to Wikipedia. I love winter, skiing and going to the sauna. I like the Nordic values and personally I respect them.<BR/><BR/>I see each nordic country being slightly different from one another. In square kilometres, Estonia wouldn't be the smallest nordic country. It would only be the least populated one and the only ex-soviet one. Should it not be regarded as Nordic for that sole reason? Why couldn't Estonia be accepted as the young and "still having much to learn" brother of the Nordics?Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12811506967096628558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1165419784074035882006-12-06T17:43:00.000+02:002006-12-06T17:43:00.000+02:00This may come as a shock but I'm actually proud to...<I>This may come as a shock but I'm actually proud to be a Balt.</I><BR/><BR/>People try to put it into a "good" versus "less good" thing, but it's not about that. <BR/><BR/>If you look up "Balt" in Wikipedia, you'll get to read about Lithuanians and Latvians, but not Estonians, because Estonians are a Finnic people.<BR/><BR/>And the fact that Finns are considered Nordic but Estonians are not creates artificial problems for Estonians. <BR/><BR/>For example, folk festivals or organizations that are "Nordic" in nature will promote Finnish culture, but not Estonian culture.<BR/><BR/>The American-Scandinavian Foundation will support scholars that want to study in Turku, but not in Tartu. <BR/><BR/>Despite its Nordic themes, Estonian poetry will not be included in books of "Nordic poetry" and Estonian folk music, though it is obviously closely related to Karelian, Sami, and Finnish folk music, won't be included on Nordic music compilations.<BR/><BR/>It's just stupid. Why do we have to keep pretending that Estonian culture is more similar to Lithuanian culture just because the Germans or the Russians call all of these peoples "Baltic"?<BR/><BR/>Culturally, it is highly advantageous for Estonian writers, artists, film makers, cartoonists, musicians, to work under the Nordic umbrella.<BR/><BR/>Why SHOULDN'T Estonian films be shown at Nordic film festivals? Do you see what I am getting at.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1165355578429574492006-12-05T23:52:00.000+02:002006-12-05T23:52:00.000+02:00This may come as a shock but I'm actually proud to...This may come as a shock but I'm actually proud to be a Balt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164705253046552762006-11-28T11:14:00.000+02:002006-11-28T11:14:00.000+02:00"I didn't know that they had to meet is Oslo, even..."I didn't know that they had to meet is Oslo, even though they all lived in Stockholm"<BR/>I don't know much about exile government. May be they met in Stockholm. But exile goverment was founded in 1952 in Oslo, because founding of exile government was prohibited on the territory of SwedenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164705030850863452006-11-28T11:10:00.001+02:002006-11-28T11:10:00.001+02:00http://www.sirp.ee/index.php?option=content&task=v...http://www.sirp.ee/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=4793&Itemid=2plasma-jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485039580759398780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164705014840054072006-11-28T11:10:00.000+02:002006-11-28T11:10:00.000+02:00Here's an article that might interest you. Unfortu...Here's an article that might interest you. Unfortunately it's in Estonian, maybe the chief editor would send you a copy in English, if you ask him nicely. Here, the rectors of Tallinn Univesrity and Vilnius Art Academy are discussing Lithuanian and Estonian cultural differences. <BR/>Arūnas Gelūnas, the Lithuanian guy, says here: "It's a fact that there is a tendance in Lithuania to distance itself from Slavic nations and to move towards something that might be called <B>a Nordic-Baltic identity</B>[...]"plasma-jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485039580759398780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164646439208912602006-11-27T18:53:00.000+02:002006-11-27T18:53:00.000+02:00This is a matter of pragmatism, as others in this ...<I>This is a matter of pragmatism, as others in this thread have indicated. If the "nordic" brand has some value in this world, why not use it if one can? Estonia isn't the first nor will it be the last to present itself as something it's not--and it may become self-fulfilling one day, if that's what Estonians want.</I><BR/><BR/>To outsiders the "Nordic" lifestyle - and I mean cultural lifestyle, not taxation policies - and the Estonian lifestyle are not that distinguishable.<BR/><BR/>Up thread I was laughed at for saying that Nordic to outsiders means countries at the top of the world with a preponderance of blondes, a love of skiing, sauna, and the Internet and, of course, booze.<BR/><BR/>ARe any other countries oustide of the Nordics like that? Not really. The Swiss and Austrians have their own word - Alpine. The Scots and Irish have their own rain-soaked Celtic identity. The Poles and Russians are flamboyant Slavs. The Latvians and Lithuanians are passionate Balts. I mean I have the utmost respect for Lithuania. They don't take any shit. For that, I commend them.<BR/><BR/>So, it's not such a hard thing to link Estonia to the Nordic idea. Under that framework things like mother's salaries and Wifi penetration, and Skype, and paying for parking by mobile phone start to MAKE SENSE. It's no longer "whoa, look at this interesting former Soviet country" it's "well, they ARE Estonians, afterall."<BR/><BR/>People wondered why after the EU referendum Estonians weren't out in the streets singing, while the Lithuanians had done so just weeks earlier. If they understood that they were dealing with the Nordic temperament, then they wouldn't have to ask those questions.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164645839795838702006-11-27T18:43:00.000+02:002006-11-27T18:43:00.000+02:00In 1989 was big scandal, when Swedish secretary of...<I>In 1989 was big scandal, when Swedish secretary of state Andresson declared, that Estonia is not occupied</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, and Olaf Palme had no problem whining about US policy in southeast Asia, but couldn't simply look across the water and see what was really there. Was there a day when the Swedes actually had guts? How far back must we go? To 1721?<BR/><BR/>I didn't know that they had to meet is Oslo, even though they all lived in Stockholm. Maybe Norway has had a bigger influence than I thought? It was Denmark and Iceland that first re-recognized Estonia. They also played a tremendous role and continue to play that role (NATO, anyone?)<BR/><BR/>Without the existence of its Nordic partners, would Estonia be in the European Union or NATO?<BR/><BR/>I really don't think Estonian independence and the Estonian economy is that important for either Russia or Germany. Historically, both of these countries saw the area as a trading post, a buffer zone, or a staging area for an invasion. <BR/><BR/>They haven't demonstrated much of an interest in the people that live there.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164645526196275552006-11-27T18:38:00.000+02:002006-11-27T18:38:00.000+02:00Much of this discussion seems to have focused on m...Much of this discussion seems to have focused on making sure a brand is an accurate (or "true") reflection of its product.<BR/><BR/>Branding is not about what actually is, but about what is perceived to be. It doesn't really matter that Estonia wasn't, isn't or won't be "nordic," or has more or less Swedish, Finnish, German or Russian influence, as long as the people for whom being nordic is important perceive Estonia to be so.<BR/><BR/>There's no reason that Estonians can't describe themselves differently to Finns, Swedes, Germans, Americans or whomever. If "nordic" evokes positive images in the minds of say, American (or whomever) policymakers, investors or tourists, why not call Estonia nordic? Estonians are still free to define themselves however they want amongst themselves. I doubt anyone will notice, let alone object.<BR/><BR/>This is a matter of pragmatism, as others in this thread have indicated. If the "nordic" brand has some value in this world, why not use it if one can? Estonia isn't the first nor will it be the last to present itself as something it's not--and it may become self-fulfilling one day, if that's what Estonians want.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164638677821896532006-11-27T16:44:00.000+02:002006-11-27T16:44:00.000+02:00"Without the sanctuary of Stockholm in the years 1..."Without the sanctuary of Stockholm in the years 1944 to 1991, there would be no legal continuity of the Estonian republic"<BR/>Sadly, but Sweden was only western country, which in 1940 de jure recognised inclusion of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania into USSR.<BR/>Exile government hold its sessions in Oslo, because this was prohibited in Sweden.<BR/>In 1989 was big scandal, when Swedish secretary of state Andresson declared, that Estonia is not occupiedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164637367200110512006-11-27T16:22:00.000+02:002006-11-27T16:22:00.000+02:00In the end of 19th century was Tallinn also quite ...<I>In the end of 19th century was Tallinn also quite multiethnic: in year 1897 Estonians made up 68,7 %, Germans 17,5 %, 10,2 % Russians, 3,6 % others</I><BR/><BR/>Can you imagine that many Russians and Germans living together? An interesting thought.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164637304285011012006-11-27T16:21:00.000+02:002006-11-27T16:21:00.000+02:00Which was Sweden's role in Estonia after 1710? And...<I>Which was Sweden's role in Estonia after 1710? And Finland was not independent country until 1917</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not talking about people, I am talking about the STATE. And without a Finnish state, there would be no Estonian state. Without the sanctuary of Stockholm in the years 1944 to 1991, there would be no legal continuity of the Estonian republic.<BR/><BR/>For these reasons alone, Estonia is as it is today, in spite of both Russian and German plans for the country.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164625542904961222006-11-27T13:05:00.000+02:002006-11-27T13:05:00.000+02:00"Their capital, Riga, has for centuries been large..."Their capital, Riga, has for centuries been large, multiethnic, and cosmopolitan"<BR/>In the end of 19th century was Tallinn also quite multiethnic: in year 1897 Estonians made up 68,7 %, Germans 17,5 %, 10,2 % Russians, 3,6 % othersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164619895142352222006-11-27T11:31:00.000+02:002006-11-27T11:31:00.000+02:00"But with Estonia it is obvious that Finland and S..."But with Estonia it is obvious that Finland and Sweden have played more significant roles than even Germany and Russia"<BR/>Which was Sweden's role in Estonia after 1710? And Finland was not independent country until 1917Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164586791318424722006-11-27T02:19:00.000+02:002006-11-27T02:19:00.000+02:00Yes, the unite Estonia we live in now has made us ...Yes, the unite Estonia we live in now has made us more similar. But even today the presence of Finns and Scandinavia is more to be felt in North, specially in Tallinn than in South. In Tallinn, the default tourist is a Finn. In Tartu... might well be a Baltic-German interested in his/her roots. And consider the influence of Finnish TV on North Estonia during the Soviet time... in South, only channels to see were the ETV, Leningrad and the so-called "Central TV". I think that's why in Tallinn most people speak some kind of Finnish while in South-Estonia only Finnish philologists and Tallinners do. So some differences still exist even today...<BR/><BR/>Difference in power between Paide and Viljandi during the Swedish/Polish era meant that one was officially Protestant, the other officially Catholic. At that period, such a difference wasn't the trifle matter it is today.<BR/>Also, Polish authorities tried to play Livlandian peasants (still mostly Catholic, even if unofficially) against German landlords (almost entirely Lutheran already). This means that career opportunities for natives were much better there than in North.<BR/><BR/>Curiously, it seems that for South Estonia, Polish era was the one least influenced by Germans until 1918. In North, the power transfer to Swedes didn't change so much from this point of view. Main change for peasants there was the switch to Protestant belief. So, for them it wasn't so much a turn from German era to Swedish era; it was rather from Germans-and-Catholicism to Germans-and-Protestantism.<BR/><BR/>About Nordicness of islands I totally agree. Saaremaa people even have a Scandinavian intonation, Hiiumaa had a both Estonian and Swedish inhabitants to say nothing of Vormsi (Ormsö) and Ruhnu (Runö) that had an entirely Swedish population up to WWII. <BR/>From the other side, we have villages of Russian Old Believers at Peipsi... and Setu Orthodox Christians, whose traditional costume is not so different from that of Russians. And to confound it all, the other region where there used to be many Orthodox Estonians is Saaremaa...<BR/><BR/>This is why it really IS about branding rather than history - we have so many different histories here, the trouble of all nations who have lived long enough in one place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164551211614222782006-11-26T16:26:00.000+02:002006-11-26T16:26:00.000+02:00By the way, when we talk about Tartu (and South Es...<I>By the way, when we talk about Tartu (and South Estonia in general), we should consider that Swedish influence was shorter there than in North.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree. The south seems very "Hansa" indeed, with its old castles. It's the north and the island which have the Nordic touch, especially the islands. Actually, northern Estonia was one of the first areas added to expansionist Sweden in 1561. South Estonia wasn't added until 1629.<BR/><BR/>But I wonder how much of an effect this had on the core identity of Estonians. Did the difference in power between Paide and Viljandi, really make its people that different?<BR/><BR/>Today, they mostly seem the same to me.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164503368077408112006-11-26T03:09:00.000+02:002006-11-26T03:09:00.000+02:00Just got to my mind: if the Baltic Germans had sta...Just got to my mind: if the Baltic Germans had stayed here as a minority, they would certainly be different of "German Germans". We could say they are more Nordic, but nevertheless, they would be some kind of Germans, just a different one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164503084342707292006-11-26T03:04:00.000+02:002006-11-26T03:04:00.000+02:00By the way, when we talk about Tartu (and South Es...By the way, when we talk about Tartu (and South Estonia in general), we should consider that Swedish influence was shorter there than in North. Academia Gustaviana was founded on the remnants of a jesuit college, founded on Polish initiative :). And this college had more influence on local ("Estonian") population than the Swedish university.<BR/>The other Scandinavians weren't much present in South-Estonia neither: if Danes founded Tallinn, then Tartu was founded by a Russian duke (and if we say that that was not the proper beginning, we either have to credit local people - which would apply to Tallinn too, then - or Germans).<BR/><BR/>About the Platt vs Hoch theme: after Platt-Deutsch wave, there was a Hoch-Deutsch wave too. When Tartu University was founded, the main town-language was High-German already and the students were mostly German. And when they started to use vernacular as the academic language instead of Latin, the vernacular was High-German (though it happened during "Russian time" already).<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I am tempted to view us as an epigone-culture of the German culture - like French in relation to Romans. (Somebody to lynch me, now?) Of course, we are not Germans, but neither are French Romans - or Italians, for that matter.<BR/><BR/>To throw in a historical curiosity, the first German opera was staged in Tallinn (Reval this time) and first G. oratory in Riga. Not that it says much about our inherent german-ness, but it shows at least that the Baltics weren't so unimportant from the point of view of the German culture.<BR/><BR/>This leads me again to the Hanseatic identity. At the time of this opera, Germany was somewhat stagnated and hardly recovered from war, except the harbor cities like Hamburg or Lübeck. Definitely at this time one could have said that mental atmosphere in Hamburg was less heavy than, say, in Cologne. One could call it "hanseatic mentality" :)<BR/><BR/>About Visby - was German the main communication language there and was it ruled by Germans like Estonian towns have been for most of their history? just for curiosity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164442645380170562006-11-25T10:17:00.000+02:002006-11-25T10:17:00.000+02:00And the German culture in Estonia was/is different...And the German culture in Estonia was/is different from the original German culture in Central Europe. For example there were no farmers in Estonia when farmers made up more then 80% of population, Germans lived in cities or were landlords. The Baltic German heritage was Northern Germany and Platt their language, close to Dutch. One part of the Baltics was for a time beeing a state of an order what we did not had in Central Europe. I could add some more. I want to emphazise that use of the word German needs more explanation, a lot of Germans traders settled and came also from Visby in Sweden. Was Visby German?Jens-Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18304784095687896639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164408899358940522006-11-25T00:54:00.000+02:002006-11-25T00:54:00.000+02:00From further past and for further discussion:would...<I>From further past and for further discussion:<BR/>would Estonian language be *the* Estonian language without Germans?<BR/>***<BR/>And while differences between Estonia and its Eastern neighbour are undeniably staggering, could you say the same about Estonia vs Germany?</I><BR/><BR/>No. The German influence is strong, indeed. Linguistically, culturally, and - especially - architecturally.<BR/><BR/>But Estonian culture - as I have experienced it - is quite a bit less "heavy" than true German culture - the society that produced Nietzche, Wittgenstein, Beethoven, Marx, and Luther.<BR/><BR/>Estonian culture seems to have more in common with Scandinavian culture in this way. You could call all of the northern countries "German lite."<BR/><BR/>And remember - the Danes founded Tallinn, the Swedes founded Tartu University.<BR/><BR/>In one way you can lump all of these actors together and call them "Germanic."Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164405420297749252006-11-24T23:57:00.000+02:002006-11-24T23:57:00.000+02:00Finland and Sweden have played more significant ro...Finland and Sweden have played more significant roles than Russia and Germany? hmmm... quite a statement indeed. It seems that you see it from a very contemporary perspective - maybe the one of about last 15 years.<BR/><BR/>From further past and for further discussion:<BR/>would Estonian language be *the* Estonian language without Germans?<BR/>(for instance, about 25% of our vocabulary comes from German or from Plattduitsch)<BR/> would Estonia be in the economic position it is if it weren't for 20th century Russia? (in quite another sense than in your question about Finland and Sweden)<BR/><BR/>And while differences between Estonia and its Eastern neighbour are undeniably staggering, could you say the same about Estonia vs Germany?<BR/><BR/>Just for the pleasure of arguing ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164401443640850612006-11-24T22:50:00.000+02:002006-11-24T22:50:00.000+02:00You know the book 'Meie Lennart', I am sure.You know the book 'Meie Lennart', I am sure.Jens-Olafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18304784095687896639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13406351.post-1164394489068703542006-11-24T20:54:00.000+02:002006-11-24T20:54:00.000+02:00And so far I could not make a different between La...<I>And so far I could not make a different between Latvians and Estonians.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, Latvian culture is very much connected to Central European culture. For example, when I visited the Museum of Jewish Heritage in Manhattan recently, I noticed that pre-war Latvia had a very significant Jewish population - in this way closer to Poland or Lithuania. Estonia, on the other hand, had about 6,000 Jews living there before the war. In this way it was more similar to Norway, which similarly had a small Jewish population.<BR/><BR/>Their capital, Riga, has for centuries been large, multiethnic, and cosmopolitan. Latvians today account for about 60 percent of the Latvian population, but in the 1890s, they were still about 68 percent.<BR/><BR/>Also, the intellectual arguments of Europe seemed to resonate stronger in Riga. In Riga you had a large multiethnic working class that could respond to Bolshevism in the first decades of the 20th century in a way that provincial Estonia could only emulate.<BR/><BR/>So when I think of Latvia, I think of them as being more cosmopolitan and more connected to central Europe. With Latvia, I feel the two greatest countries in its history have been Germany and Russia and the role it plays between them. In fact, having read some Latvian foreign policy papers, I believe that this is how they see themselves - as a country that serve as a conduit or common ground between these two large political and economic powerhouses.<BR/><BR/>But with Estonia it is obvious that Finland and Sweden have played more significant roles than even Germany and Russia. <BR/><BR/>I know that seems like quite a statement, but would Estonia be independent if it wasn't for Finland? Would Estonia be in the economic position it is if it weren't for Sweden and Finland? The country as it exists now would not have been built without its Nordic brethren. It would have either been eventually colonized by Germans or Russians and wiped out if it weren't for Scandinavian ideals of liberal democracy.<BR/><BR/>And the differences between Estonia and its eastern neighbor are staggering. In Estonia they write freely about Sacha Baron Cohen's film <I>Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan.</I> They willingly laugh at themselves. They love democracy. They love watching Laar versus Ansip versus Savikas versus Reiljan. They may think all politicians are corrupt, but they love watching them fight. They may think Ilves is buffoonish or arrogant, but they love having a president JUST so they can make fun of him.<BR/><BR/>In Russia they ban films (including Borat), murder journalists, and Putin has a 70 percent approval rating. I rest my case.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.com